16 Trillion...How long before the US goes bankrupt?

[Minte]

http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html

And if you think it can't happen to a superpower. Think - Soviet Union

[Wizzo]

Interestingly, it was their war in Afghanistan that was a big part of the final straw..

[Overload]

ah well ... the tumbling giant ... living on debt and waging war all over the world - a system that HAS to fall sooner or later ... regarding war - I HOPE SOONER!!!

[xNetworx]

I thought the US was already bankrupt

[Bryan G]

Originally Posted by Minte

http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html

And if you think it can't happen to a superpower. Think - Soviet Union

Ask Duyba, he started the downfall.

[BFT3K]

Money is just an illusion. Our currency is not real. It is not backed up by anything.

It simply makes up the house of cards we currently reside under.

[Mutt]

it's in nobody's interest, especially creditors', for the worlds biggest economy to go bankrupt. ten years from now the US will still be creating imaginary money and you and thousands of others will still be making threads like this.

it's a Ponzi scheme and it will go on for however long those at the top want it to.

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by Bryan G

Ask Duyba, he started the downfall.

Actually the downfall started in 1913 and really started to fall in 1971.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by Mutt

it's in nobody's interest, especially creditors', for the worlds biggest economy to go bankrupt. ten years from now the US will still be creating imaginary money and you and thousands of others will still be making threads like this.

it's a Ponzi scheme and it will go on for however long those at the top want it to.

Why would the US succeed where the Soviet Union failed?
They had printing presses. They had magic accounting yet they collapsed because they ultimately spent far more than they were able to repay.

[Vapid - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Fantasy breeds reality.

[wehateporn]

One man's debt is another man's financial asset, so lots of public stuff would have to be handed over in exchange for the bankruptcy; good on the short-term, bad on the long term when you've got more toll roads etc

[kane]

Right now the debt is about 99% of the GDP. During the depression it was at about 120%. So I think we have a little ways to go before we implode, but it could happen. If we stay as we are going I would say we could have another major recession or even depression within about 10-15 years.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by kane

Right now the debt is about 99% of the GDP. During the depression it was at about 120%. So I think we have a little ways to go before we implode, but it could happen. If we stay as we are going I would say we could have another major recession or even depression within about 10-15 years.

The wage structure in China continues to increase. It's nearly $5.00 an hour now,so their grand plan to build their economy on the backs of american jobs has worked. That being said, I have read in a lot of places where the average wage in China will catch up to the minimum wage in the US by 2016. When that happens the Chinese won't need the US market and the money that the US owes them won't be the bartering chip it is today.

If spending isn't dramatically cut, and if the government doesn't find ways to generate more income a real bankruptcy will probably happen much sooner than 10-15 years.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by Minte

Why would the US succeed where the Soviet Union failed?
They had printing presses. They had magic accounting yet they collapsed beca use they ultimately spent far more than they were able to repay.

you don't know the difference? Lol

[HushMoney]

Originally Posted by Minte

Why would the US succeed where the Soviet Union failed?
They had printing presses. They had magic accounting yet they collapsed because they ultimately spent far more than they were able to repay.

how valuable were Rubles in the world economy before the collapse?

[Houdini]

2015-16 is when we will default.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by HushMoney

how valuable were Rubles in the world economy before the collapse?

Valuable enough to create a war machine large enough to destroy the planet many times over. Also valuable enough to provide for the majority of their population.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by tony286

you don't know the difference? Lol

Blind faith Tony.. Everyone that crashed in a car today all started their mornings knowing that bad things won't happen to them. It always happens to someone else.

And I am curious Tony, what part of a 16 trillion dollar deficit makes you LOL

[DWB]

One of these days...

[epitome]

Edit: NM, the number I was looking at was inclusive of all types levels of government.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Minte

The wage structure in China continues to increase. It's nearly $5.00 an hour now,so their grand plan to build their economy on the backs of american jobs has worked. That being said, I have read in a lot of places where the average wage in China will catch up to the minimum wage in the US by 2016. When that happens the Chinese won't need the US market and the money that the US owes them won't be the bartering chip it is today.

If spending isn't dramatically cut, and if the government doesn't find ways to generate more income a real bankruptcy will probably happen much sooner than 10-15 years.

Spending does need to be cut and if the economy can get fully back on track that will help as well. The question is will we get leaders that can really cut the budget in a way that brings the debt down without causing serious issues and it doesn't seem like anyone we have out there from either party is capable of that. I'm not sure it will be as soon as 2016 that we could go bankrupt, but it does loom out there and without changes or some kind of huge economic improvement we could be in some serious trouble.

[ajrocks]

Bad news! The US is already bankrupt, they are just pretending they aren't as long as they can.

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by Minte

The wage structure in China continues to increase. It's nearly $5.00 an hour now,

show me this stat, i highly doubt that the average wage per hour in China is $5 per hour, maybe at the top factories where they're pumping out iphones.

congrats to the politicians and corporations who sold out the American worker - such patriots.

[Helix]

If Obama continues it won't be long.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by Mutt

show me this stat, i highly doubt that the average wage per hour in China is $5 per hour, maybe at the top factories where they're pumping out iphones.

congrats to the politicians and corporations who sold out the American worker - such patriots.

I read it in a Wall Street Journal a while back. However, google the question and you will certainly find sites you trust that will substantiate the numbers.

[ColBigBalls]

Depends. When did china say they were cut off? =)

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Minte

I read it in a Wall Street Journal a while back. However, google the question and you will certainly find sites you trust that will substantiate the numbers.

i employ people in china.

the most valuable one makes over the 5 dollar mark you mentioned.

but here he would be not affordable to me.

i dont think the minimum wage is anywhere close to what he is making either.

The others make much less then him and are happy...and they still make quite a bit more then the average person. When i was there i met people working from early morning until late night to make a few extra bucks.

Im going back soon. I love it there.
Granted the major cities the prices are going up a bit...but still nothing to twist your panties over.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by Minte

Blind faith Tony.. Everyone that crashed in a car today all started their mornings knowing that bad things won't happen to them. It always happens to someone else.

And I am curious Tony, what part of a 16 trillion dollar deficit makes you LOL

When people actually think cutting welfare and pbs is going to fix it and never raising a dollar in taxes.Also Japan is 239% and they seem to be doing ok no end of the world shit there.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by ColBigBalls

Depends. When did china say they were cut off? =)

They would've liked to have cut off the credit line 3 years ago. But there economy wasn't strong enough to make the switch from a supplier based to a consumer based.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by tony286

When people actually think cutting welfare and pbs is going to fix it and never raising a dollar in taxes.

So that is your solution to the deficit crisis? If so, you should probably just move to a different thread. The LOL's speaks volumes.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by Minte

So that is your solution to the deficit crisis? If so, you should probably just move to a different thread. The LOL's speaks volumes.

Nope your belief that cutting a few programs is going to fix it. You need both cuts and revenue. Thats how clinton and Newt did it. And Newt felt raising taxes was going to be the end of the world and it wasnt.

[Relentless]

The problem is citizens united. It really is that simple.
Our country is now electing people from both parties who are bought and paid for by the exact same puppeteers.
Those people doing the buying have no allegiance to the united states whatsoever.

Mitt romney's #1 known campaign contributor = Goldman Sachs
Obama's #2 known contributor = Goldman Sachs
I say known because now that disclosure isn't required we have zero ability to know who is in whose pocket or sure

Do you really think Goldman execs care if they are building or destroying the US economy?
They care only if they are profiting fom the rise or fall, and will ride the wave all the way up and down.
There is no connection between elections and the electorate. A vote for either candidate will yield identical results on fiscal policy because the same people own both canidates.

When our elections actually matter, our fiscal policy will change. Not before.

Bush or Obama, republican or democratic congress... Social policy changes but fiscal policy is held entirely out of reach.
There has been a coup and not a single shot was fired.
Our government is owned by people who consider themselves to be multinational corporate entities, not US companies.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by tony286

Nope your belief that cutting a few programs is going to fix it. You need both cuts and revenue. Thats how clinton and Newt did it. And Newt felt raising taxes was going to be the end of the world and it wasnt.

My belief? Read the thread, where did I state my belief was cutting a few programs will solve anything.

What I would do if I were in politics and could actually enact change.

Reduce spending.

Force military spending reductions by 5% annually for 6 years and then only COLA increases.

Make tenure for college professors illegal. Reduce the costs of a college education so more people could learn something without being buried in debt.

I would create a division with serious teeth to oversee waste and corruption in all entitlement programs.


Generate more revenue

I would immediately create a 5% federal sales tax. After one year if the budget starts moving in the right direction I would cut that tax back by 1% annually until it hit 2% and that would remain permanently.

I would create a flat tax. 16 -18%

I would make pot legal, and allow US farmers to grow it and tax it at the same rate cigarets and liquor is taxed. Along with that, anyone who is currently jailed for any pot related crimes would be freed from prison.

There are hundreds of ways to generate revenue. Adding additional taxes to the upper 1% won't fix the deficit. It will only chase those that actually create jobs away.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by Minte

My belief? Read the thread, where did I state my belief was cutting a few programs will solve anything.

What I would do if I were in politics and could actually enact change.

Reduce spending.

Force military spending reductions by 5% annually for 6 years and then only COLA increases.

Make tenure for college professors illegal. Reduce the costs of a college education so more people could learn something without being buried in debt.

I would create a division with serious teeth to oversee waste and corruption in all entitlement programs.


Generate more revenue

I would immediately create a 5% federal sales tax. After one year if the budget starts moving in the right direction I would cut that tax back by 1% annually until it hit 2% and that would remain permanently.

I would create a flat tax. 16 -18%

I would make pot legal, and allow US farmers to grow it and tax it at the same rate cigarets and liquor is taxed. Along with that, anyone who is currently jailed for any pot related crimes would be freed from prison.

There are hundreds of ways to generate revenue. Adding additional taxes to the upper 1% won't fix the deficit. It will only chase those that actually create jobs away.

You make excellent points I stand corrected but lowering taxes isnt bringing jobs back. The jobs been going offshore for a long time and taxes have been very low.

[Relentless]

Minte, a 5% sales tax does increase the taxes on the top 1% considerably.
Many only pay 15% now so you are talking about raising their taxes by a very large percentage if all of their purchases are taxed.
In fact, your 5% sales tax would raise their taxes by a lot... Which is why the GOP won't do it.
Ther prefer the Ryan plan which factually would have reduced Romney's income tax to less than 1% in 2010 (applying the actual Ryan numbers to the actual 2010 return which is the only one Romney has made public)

I very much favor a national sales tax. Romney, Ryan and Goldman Sachs do not.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by Relentless

Minte, a 5% sales tax does increase the taxes on the top 1% considerably.
Many only pay 15% now so you are talking about raising their taxes by a very large percentage if all of their purchases are taxed.
In fact, your 5% sales tax would raise their taxes more than a 1% increase... Which is why the GOP won't do it.
Ther prefer the Ryan plan which factually would have reduced Romney's income tax to less than 1% in 2010 (applying the actual Ryan numbers to the actual 2010 return which is the only one Romney has made public)

I very much favor a national sales tax. Romney, Ryan and Goldman Sachs do not.

It only increases it if the upper 1% wants to buy expensive things. No one will be forcing anyone to buy citation jets,yachts,mansions or artworks.

[Relentless]

Killing tenure has nothing to do with tuition costs. Tuition costs are not based in any way on expenses or costs per student.
Harvard has an endowment large enough to provide 100% free education to every student if they wanted to do it.
They get more money in alumni donations than their expenses sum out to...
College is a business, much like health care is a business.

They are being run as for PROFIT industries not societal necessities.
We have private companies profit off basic health, necessary education, required energy and our military security.
Tenure and the dopey professors aren't driving up costs. Costs and price have been completely divorced from one another.

I really hope you are getting what's going on.

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by Minte

It only increases it if the upper 1% wants to buy expensive things. No one will be forcing anyone to buy citation jets,yachts,mansions or artworks.

That's exactly why we should do it, and exactly why it will not be done.

The guys buying expensive things are the same handful of people who are buying the politicians.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Minte

My belief? Read the thread, where did I state my belief was cutting a few programs will solve anything.

What I would do if I were in politics and could actually enact change.

Reduce spending.

Force military spending reductions by 5% annually for 6 years and then only COLA increases.

Make tenure for college professors illegal. Reduce the costs of a college education so more people could learn something without being buried in debt.

I would create a division with serious teeth to oversee waste and corruption in all entitlement programs.


Generate more revenue

I would immediately create a 5% federal sales tax. After one year if the budget starts moving in the right direction I would cut that tax back by 1% annually until it hit 2% and that would remain permanently.

I would create a flat tax. 16 -18%

I would make pot legal, and allow US farmers to grow it and tax it at the same rate cigarets and liquor is taxed. Along with that, anyone who is currently jailed for any pot related crimes would be freed from prison.

There are hundreds of ways to generate revenue. Adding additional taxes to the upper 1% won't fix the deficit. It will only chase those that actually create jobs away.

Some very good ideas although I might be hesitant about the national sales tax unless it was created in a way that basic needs like food, medicine and things like that were exempt because otherwise it could end up being pretty damaging to the poor. Aside from that I think this is a legit answer.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Relentless

That's exactly why we should do it, and exactly why it will not be done.

The guys buying expensive things are the same handful of people who are buying the politicians.

Would there be a sales tax on buying a politician?

[Mutt]

once you have a national sales tax believe me it will be there forever and go up not down - once politicians and bureaucrats are given another revenue stream they'll just use it as an excuse to spend more.

flat income tax is the way to go but you know who won't go for it - the wealthy.

national sales tax is inevitable for the US, are there any other major countries without one?

[Relentless]

If you decriminalize pot and other nonviolent crimes (prostitution, gambling, etc...) you had best brace yourself for massive price increases from the poultry industry and others like it. Prisoners are a large slave labor force for a few big companies who are using your tax dollars toward prison costs, to subsidize their own payroll expenses.

The government is looking for another new poultry warden right now...
http://jobs.spb.ca.gov/wvpos/more_info.cfm?recno=488817

Don't worry, thanks to citizens united the poultry companies and big pharma can pay whoever they need to keep pot illegal and jails full. Best of all, nobody has to disclose how much they paid or who they paid.

It all goes back to the same root. Free and fair elections.

[Relentless]

As for serious teeth on entitlement program investigations, I'm all for it.
But how about some teeth for:

The SEC - now famous for convicting nobody and fining thieves less than they stole
Energy regulators - BP seems to be doing just fine after their spill and nobody is quite sure why gas is now 4+ dollars per gallon
Credit And Banking Regulators - they already gutted the previously watered down Elizabeth Warren reforms and Glass Steagal remains a glass pipe dream

More teeth requires more funding and bigger government. The Ryan budget doesn't allow for any of that... Coincidence?

Think it will happen while Exxon, BP, Goldman Sachs, Visa and the rest can hand out billions of dollars with no paper trail?
Me neither.

[Relentless]

I favor each of your proposals Minte.
Heck I'd vote for you..
Then you would lose the election or win and be marginalized

Citizens United will end our democracy in less than 100 years.
I'd tell you that you can 'put that in the bank'... If I trusted the banks.

[2012]

[BFT3K]

Originally Posted by 2012

Hmmm, so it turns out we're already bankrupt.... Cool

[Joshua G]

there will never be bankruptcy. eventually bankers will gather in a room, just like sept 2008, & they will engineer a solution. the federal government will pass it, just like TARP got throttled through.

we are too big to fail now. short a natural disaster, or a loose nuke.

[Due]

Interesting comparison:
2004 numbers:
national debt per citizen: $25,133 / per taxpayer $72,129
personal debt per citizen: $41,984 / savings:8,597

2008 numbers:
national debt per citizen: $33,321 / per taxpayer $93,704
personal debt per citizen: $56,232 / savings: 4,475

2012 numbers:

national debt per citizen: $50,844 / per taxpayer $139,915
personal debt per citizen: $50,241 / savings: 4,822

[2MuchMark]

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Minte

http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html

And if you think it can't happen to a superpower. Think - Soviet Union

Thats the only one you can come up with?
All superpowers have failed.