Glam/Art/Beautiful Porn - GoFuckYourself.com

Sophie Delancey · 10-16-2012, 08:29 AM

How do you feel about this genre? Is it something you do/would promote?

Do you feel like it's a purposeful swing away from more graphic hardcore porn?

And do you market it to couples, women or men or some combination there-of?

I'd just love to get a conversation going about this increasingly popular kind of porn.

bronco67 · 10-16-2012, 10:20 AM

Give it about 2 more years. It'll be a bunch of gaping, ass-eating and drooling.

marcop · 10-16-2012, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronco67

Give it about 2 more years. It'll be a bunch of gaping, ass-eating and drooling.

I hope so because right now all the content in this genre that I've seen has been unbearably lame... I could only watch 2-3 minutes before getting bored. A lot of folks have jumped on this bandwagon and IMHO I don't think the genre is going to be that big in the long run.

Grapesoda · 10-16-2012, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcop

I hope so because right now all the content in this genre that I've seen has been unbearably lame... I could only watch 2-3 minutes before getting bored. A lot of folks have jumped on this bandwagon and IMHO I don't think the genre is going to be that big in the long run.

I think the guys producing the stuff are a lot more excited about it that the consumers... have to see how manwin comes down on it.... they have the traffic to figure it out. I agree with Fabian though... the bigger the screen the better...

Fat Panda · 10-16-2012, 12:13 PM

BabesMoney.com hd glamcore porn site Babes.com has been converting extremely well for me.

Radical Bucks · 10-16-2012, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophie Delancey

How do you feel about this genre? Is it something you do/would promote?

Do you feel like it's a purposeful swing away from more graphic hardcore porn?

And do you market it to couples, women or men or some combination there-of?

I'd just love to get a conversation going about this increasingly popular kind of porn.

I noticed that this type of porn shows more of the males than the females now.
SO ITS GAY AS FUCK!

dgraves · 10-16-2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radical Bucks

I noticed that this type of porn shows more of the males than the females now.
SO ITS GAY AS FUCK!

Gays Pay!

Sophie Delancey · 10-17-2012, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronco67

Give it about 2 more years. It'll be a bunch of gaping, ass-eating and drooling.

Damn. I hope not. Diversity in everything is the spice of life, including porn. Though I'm sure you can make analingus classy.

Sophie Delancey · 10-17-2012, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

I think the guys producing the stuff are a lot more excited about it that the consumers... have to see how manwin comes down on it.... they have the traffic to figure it out. I agree with Fabian though... the bigger the screen the better...

The right kinds of people who are really into making this kind of porn make something excellent and actually engaging to their audience. There's more to it than pretty girls and soft lighting.

Grapesoda · 10-17-2012, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophie Delancey

The right kinds of people who are really into making this kind of porn make something excellent and actually engaging to their audience. There's more to it than pretty girls and soft lighting.

and what is that?

Sophie Delancey · 10-17-2012, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcop

I hope so because right now all the content in this genre that I've seen has been unbearably lame... I could only watch 2-3 minutes before getting bored. A lot of folks have jumped on this bandwagon and IMHO I don't think the genre is going to be that big in the long run.

It's hard to say. A lot of it can be really boring, but that's way more about the performers and the people making the porn. If you're not passionate about it and you're just looking to get with a trend, it'll suck, but people who actually find this kind of stuff really engaging will find a way to make it engaging for the viewer too.

Sophie Delancey · 10-17-2012, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

and what is that?

Passion for the type of porn you're making. A hardcore guy going into this just to make money isn't going to have the same eye for what makes this hot. And if you have performers without genuine chemistry and enjoyment of this kind of sex, it all looks phoned in.

Sophie Delancey · 10-17-2012, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radical Bucks

I noticed that this type of porn shows more of the males than the females now.
SO ITS GAY AS FUCK!

Lolz. I don't know, man. With the right chemistry, including more of the dude is hot across the board. It puts you into the fantasy. Then again, I'm a lady who enjoys the company of gentlemen.

Evil Chris · 10-17-2012, 08:48 AM

I like this niche.... I was just having a look at www.ronharris.com this morning as a matter of fact.
That is some NICE content there.

Paul Markham · 10-17-2012, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophie Delancey

It's hard to say. A lot of it can be really boring, but that's way more about the performers and the people making the porn. If you're not passionate about it and you're just looking to get with a trend, it'll suck, but people who actually find this kind of stuff really engaging will find a way to make it engaging for the viewer too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophie Delancey

Passion for the type of porn you're making. A hardcore guy going into this just to make money isn't going to have the same eye for what makes this hot. And if you have performers without genuine chemistry and enjoyment of this kind of sex, it all looks phoned in.

All porn should be shot like this. Sadly most produce without any passion for the work.

Grapesoda · 10-17-2012, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophie Delancey

Passion for the type of porn you're making. A hardcore guy going into this just to make money isn't going to have the same eye for what makes this hot. And if you have performers without genuine chemistry and enjoyment of this kind of sex, it all looks phoned in.

as I've stated: the only guys that give a fuck about the stuff are the guys making it

DeanCapture · 10-17-2012, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

as I've stated: the only guys that give a fuck about the stuff are the guys making it

Well, I think you're wrong on this. If there wasn't a market, there wouldn't be buyers for this type of material. Maybe there's not as big of an audience as there is for ATK styled content, but this industry is all about diversity and trying to fill a need. Obviously there is a need or I wouldn't be working, neither would Hicks, Jay Allen and countless others who produce this type of content.

I love how people here like to be so opinionated. If the content doesn't give them a boner, it must be shit content. The world does not revolve around ATK styled content.... just like the world does not revolve around Cadillacs or Nikons or PCs.

Do what you do... and let others do what they do and embrace the differences - even if you don't understand them.

Grapesoda · 10-17-2012, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanCapture

Well, I think you're wrong on this. If there wasn't a market, there wouldn't be buyers for this type of material. Maybe there's not as big of an audience as there is for ATK styled content, but this industry is all about diversity and trying to fill a need. Obviously there is a need or I wouldn't be working, neither would Hicks, Jay Allen and countless others who produce this type of content.

I love how people here like to be so opinionated. If the content doesn't give them a boner, it must be shit content. The world does not revolve around ATK styled content.... just like the world does not revolve around Cadillacs or Nikons or PCs.

Do what you do... and let others do what they do and embrace the differences - even if you don't understand them.

only time will tell. BTW I shoot sex almost every day and have no real interest in it at all... doesn't mean I care if you like it... I am expressing a personal opinion on a type of content. if you should choose to be butt hurt about that, that's on you

Paul Markham · 10-17-2012, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanCapture

Well, I think you're wrong on this. If there wasn't a market, there wouldn't be buyers for this type of material. Maybe there's not as big of an audience as there is for ATK styled content, but this industry is all about diversity and trying to fill a need. Obviously there is a need or I wouldn't be working, neither would Hicks, Jay Allen and countless others who produce this type of content.

I love how people here like to be so opinionated. If the content doesn't give them a boner, it must be shit content. The world does not revolve around ATK styled content.... just like the world does not revolve around Cadillacs or Nikons or PCs.

Do what you do... and let others do what they do and embrace the differences - even if you don't understand them.

Someone tell Dean I agree with him 100%. He had me on ignore.

This market is big and has been for years, the only problem is the cost of production and ROI.

Why is Grapesoda shooting something he has no interest in?

I shot it once/twice a week and love sex.

marcop · 10-17-2012, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanCapture

Obviously there is a need or I wouldn't be working, neither would Hicks, Jay Allen and countless others who produce this type of content.

I really like the way glamcore looks--the high production value really add something. The problem for me is that in glamcore there seems to be an inverse relationship between the production values and the heat in the scene; i.e., the better the production values, the lamer the action.

Also, as someone else mentioned rather coarsely earlier, there's usually too much of the guys in the frame for my tastes. Maybe that's meant to attract a female audience, but it's probably off-putting for the male portion of the audience... at least for the thoroughly heterosexual portion of the male audience.

The thing that goes through my head when I watch that kind of material is, "Why are these guys producing porn? They'd earn a lot more money making commercials." Which is probably a) because I'm bored, and, b) because I think they're wasting their talents making bad porn when they could be making a lot more money making bad commercials.

DeanCapture · 10-17-2012, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

I am expressing a personal opinion on a type of content. if you should choose to be butt hurt about that, that's on you

Nobody is butt hurt.

Just pointing out how sad it is to see producers talking shit about the product of other producers simply because they don't understand or appreciate the market, or because it doesn't give them a boner. The paying audience decides how successful a style of content will be - not fellow producers.

We have a difference of opinion but no need to cop an attitude

Paul Markham · 10-17-2012, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcop

I really like the way glamcore looks--the high production value really add something. The problem for me is that in glamcore there seems to be an inverse relationship between the production values and the heat in the scene; i.e., the better the production values, the lamer the action.

It depends what you call lame. It's not about abuse or even banging a woman purely for male pleasure, it's about love making, sensuality and erotica. The sex can still be intense and real and should be.

Quote:

The thing that goes through my head when I watch that kind of material is, "Why are these guys producing porn? They'd earn a lot more money making commercials." Which is probably a) because I'm bored, and, b) because I think they're wasting their talents making bad porn when they could be making a lot more money making bad commercials.

They wouldn't get hired as easily. I've said it before and will say it again. There's really great money shooting wedding. Stills and Videos that bring something more to the table than Uncle Bernie with his $800 digital cameras.

TBH I've not seen more than samples on tours of the content, would love to see more. I do know from what I saw in the past, it's a great niche and style.

DeanCapture · 10-17-2012, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcop

I really like the way glamcore looks--the high production value really add something. The problem for me is that in glamcore there seems to be an inverse relationship between the production values and the heat in the scene; i.e., the better the production values, the lamer the action.

Also, as someone else mentioned rather coarsely earlier, there's usually too much of the guys in the frame for my tastes. Maybe that's meant to attract a female audience, but it's probably off-putting for the male portion of the audience... at least for the thoroughly heterosexual portion of the male audience.

The thing that goes through my head when I watch that kind of material is, "Why are these guys producing porn? They'd earn a lot more money making commercials." Which is probably a) because I'm bored, and, b) because I think they're wasting their talents making bad porn when they could be making a lot more money making bad commercials.

I think this style is still in it's infancy and evolving. I know others, as well as myself who produce this material are constantly re-evaluating how we shoot to make it better and more appealing to a wider audience. But I don't think it'll ever have the same audience as ATK for example. This type of material is targeted to a different class of people. Someone who appreciates a higher production value and who doesn't mind if the "heat" is not as pronounced. "Heat" is a viable component but it's not the only component and certainly to some, not an overly important component. One man might watch a scene and feel no heat while another might think there was plenty of heat

digitalfantasies · 10-17-2012, 10:32 AM

Personally I like this type of porn... for me it's a lot more realistic than extreme bitch slapping gagging degrading for women hardcore trash

MaDalton · 10-17-2012, 10:36 AM

i personally prefer reality stuff - can even look amateurish

but shooting this kind of content was a very new experience for us and without the right people behind the camera it will be crap

and i am pretty sure that at those prices and all exclusive content, the people who run those sites know very well what they do

marcop · 10-17-2012, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

It depends what you call lame. It's not about abuse or even banging a woman purely for male pleasure, it's about love making, sensuality and erotica. The sex can still be intense and real and should be.

I would never let a guy abuse a girl on my set, and have fired guys on the spot for being disrespectful to a girl. And hot sex doesn't have to involve abuse and don't know why you even mentioned that.

But I never hire couples because they usually end up making love for the camera, and I don't want to see people making love, I want to see people fucking. So maybe that's the difference? Some part of the audience wants to see the lovey-dovey stuff, and others prefer something a bit more adventurous.

Paul Markham · 10-17-2012, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

i personally prefer reality stuff - can even look amateurish

but shooting this kind of content was a very new experience for us and without the right people behind the camera it will be crap

and i am pretty sure that at those prices and all exclusive content, the people who run those sites know very well what they do

Agree.

A also loved Ed Powers, that was as real as it gets.

Paul Markham · 10-17-2012, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcop

I would never let a guy abuse a girl on my set, and have fired guys on the spot for being disrespectful to a girl. And hot sex doesn't have to involve abuse and don't know why you even mentioned that.

But I never hire couples because they usually end up making love for the camera, and I don't want to see people making love, I want to see people fucking. So maybe that's the difference? Some part of the audience wants to see the lovey-dovey stuff, and others prefer something a bit more adventurous.

I've also kicked guys and girls off the set for abusing the guys. With the girls it's the total lack of warmth towards the guy.

There's nothing to stop the glam/art niche being hot sex. Kissing, licking, fucking can get very passionate and rampant. Ask my wife.

Every woman loves passionate hot sex. As I said I need to see some full scenes to pass a definite reply on a particulars site's version of the niche.

Grapesoda · 10-17-2012, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanCapture

Nobody is butt hurt.

Just pointing out how sad it is to see producers talking shit about the product of other producers simply because they don't understand or appreciate the market, or because it doesn't give them a boner. The paying audience decides how successful a style of content will be - not fellow producers.

We have a difference of opinion but no need to cop an attitude

look Deanster I did not talk shit... you are. I'd like to point out that you are the one with red ass not me... and in 2 years 'just like I stated earlier' the market will decide... not you or the other producers... I have no dog in this fight one way or the other to be honest about it... and just like I always do I will let the client/members decide what I produce... I'm just happy all you guys are working, because most producers aren't

DeanCapture · 10-17-2012, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

look Deanster I did not talk shit... you are. I'd like to point out that you are the one with red ass not me...

I better move along before you take this to a ridiculously stupid place.

I'm out - carry on........

bronco67 · 10-17-2012, 01:30 PM

But who likes this glam stuff -- women? My wife likes porn, and she digs seeing Rocco Sifffedi choke a bitch until her mascara is running.

Grapesoda · 10-17-2012, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronco67

But who likes this glam stuff -- women? My wife likes porn, and she digs seeing Rocco Sifffedi choke a bitch until her mascara is running.

it's a new generation out there and everyone will find out what that generation likes when they look at the bank balance I guess

SexKey Scott · 10-17-2012, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Chris

I like this niche.... I was just having a look at www.ronharris.com this morning as a matter of fact.
That is some NICE content there.

Gotta agree with you on that one.. I have yet to see any other site that shoots content at the caliber that he does.

Radical Bucks · 10-17-2012, 10:00 PM

Dean Capture is a sell out, his views and opinions do not matter anymore since he is laying the Manwin bed, sucking Manwin cock.

Dean is now accepting money from well documented content thieves.

He is also now Ghetto posting Haters make us famous garbage. The word haters came from the Ghetto.
This is a true reflection of who and what you are. Elementary mind set.

You like looking at the males in boygirl porn. This new passion glam porn is mostly present the male body.

Paul Markham · 10-18-2012, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

it's a new generation out there and everyone will find out what that generation likes when they look at the bank balance I guess

Yes the new generation who thinks everything online should be free.

Glam porn is nothing new. It will survive.

Sophie Delancey · 10-18-2012, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Chris

I like this niche.... I was just having a look at www.ronharris.com this morning as a matter of fact.
That is some NICE content there.

I like their use of high-end sex toys. Nothing is quite as big a turn-off to me as watching girls with those awful jelly toys full of phthalates.

Sophie Delancey · 10-18-2012, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanCapture

Do what you do... and let others do what they do and embrace the differences - even if you don't understand them.

Amen to that, Dean! Porn deeply needs to be more than just one thing. It's the only thing that's going to expand our reach and ultimately teach people that there is value in it. Then maybe we'll stop being so judgmental about sexuality and people can loosen up!

Sophie Delancey · 10-18-2012, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcop

I really like the way glamcore looks--the high production value really add something. The problem for me is that in glamcore there seems to be an inverse relationship between the production values and the heat in the scene; i.e., the better the production values, the lamer the action.

Also, as someone else mentioned rather coarsely earlier, there's usually too much of the guys in the frame for my tastes. Maybe that's meant to attract a female audience, but it's probably off-putting for the male portion of the audience... at least for the thoroughly heterosexual portion of the male audience.

I think a lot of this comes down to connection and direction. If you're shooting people who are in love or who actually want to fuck each other for more than just a paycheque, you're liable to get the heat you're looking for. Same with direction... Don't tell people to have ultra soft sex just because you think it fits the aesthetic. They might want to get a little more intense naturally, which would be hot because it's real passion. It's an issue with letting people be themselves and hiring people whose selves are actually into it.

As for the dude-focus, sperm competition is a real thing. A lot of guys enjoy having men in the action a bit more because it sense a biological response that gets them off.

Sophie Delancey · 10-18-2012, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronco67

But who likes this glam stuff -- women? My wife likes porn, and she digs seeing Rocco Sifffedi choke a bitch until her mascara is running.

A lot of people dig rough, a lot of people dig soft. I enjoy both. Variety is the spice of life.

mavruda · 10-18-2012, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophie Delancey

How do you feel about this genre? Is it something you do/would promote?

Do you feel like it's a purposeful swing away from more graphic hardcore porn?

And do you market it to couples, women or men or some combination there-of?

I'd just love to get a conversation going about this increasingly popular kind of porn.

Porn with sexy, beautiful and young models showing tight bodies , shaven pussies - with hormones floating from the photos - and everything like screaming : Fuck me now!
I'm not promoter, but these are inspiring me to draw more for sure.

pornguy · 10-18-2012, 11:16 AM

To me its like watching a cable porn show.

xanadu · 10-19-2012, 05:38 AM

for sure there is a market and with internet tv(whatever form this can take) i expect it to grow much more in the near future.

I personally the content being made today in this genre is still far from being female oriented (hopefully it will and this will open a really huge market at some point) but still does much better in licencing etc. Especially in europe this is a very profitable revenue stream for many producers.

Axel_Crak · 10-19-2012, 06:13 AM

Bonjour Panos

I like those kind of sites, way much better than hardcore stuff.. i guess in lil romatic

Theses are premium content and good sellers

http://met-art.com/

http://www.sexart.com/

Sophie Delancey · 10-19-2012, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xanadu

for sure there is a market and with internet tv(whatever form this can take) i expect it to grow much more in the near future.

I personally the content being made today in this genre is still far from being female oriented (hopefully it will and this will open a really huge market at some point) but still does much better in licencing etc. Especially in europe this is a very profitable revenue stream for many producers.

That's so cool to hear you say. I think it's really on the rise, too. It's a viable alternative to more hardcore stuff, which a lot of people like to have as an option.

You're so spot on about the women's porn issue, too. It may be softer and prettier, but it still feels like it's marketed towards the male gaze. I do a lot of work in identifying and developing the idea of porn for women and, while I don't think that any porn is inherently NOT for women, I don't think that glam/art porn is any more woman-focused than other types. Maybe just more woman-friendly.

RyanEagle · 10-19-2012, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgraves

Gays Pay!

Absolutely good payers!

10-16-2012, 08:29 AM	#1
Sophie Delancey Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 1,249	Glam/Art/Beautiful Porn How do you feel about this genre? Is it something you do/would promote? Do you feel like it's a purposeful swing away from more graphic hardcore porn? And do you market it to couples, women or men or some combination there-of? I'd just love to get a conversation going about this increasingly popular kind of porn. __________________ Bright Desire - Smart, sensual porn. [email protected] Skype - SophieDelancey Twitter - @SophieDelancey ICQ - 602670915

10-16-2012, 10:20 AM	#2
bronco67 Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 29,035	Give it about 2 more years. It'll be a bunch of gaping, ass-eating and drooling. __________________

10-17-2012, 08:48 AM	#14
Evil Chris OG Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 3rd from the Sun Posts: 13,208	I like this niche.... I was just having a look at www.ronharris.com this morning as a matter of fact. That is some NICE content there. __________________ It PAYZE to post on GFY chris at payze.com \| Skype chriswrp

10-17-2012, 10:32 AM	#24
digitalfantasies Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Caribbean Posts: 2,636	Personally I like this type of porn... for me it's a lot more realistic than extreme bitch slapping gagging degrading for women hardcore trash __________________

10-17-2012, 10:36 AM	#25
MaDalton I am Amazing Content! Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Cheque Republic Posts: 39,783	i personally prefer reality stuff - can even look amateurish but shooting this kind of content was a very new experience for us and without the right people behind the camera it will be crap and i am pretty sure that at those prices and all exclusive content, the people who run those sites know very well what they do __________________ AmazingContent.com - providing only the best content and service since 2003 Monetize your content on Veegaz.com - one of Germanies largest VOD sites Skype: madalton02826 - Email: oltecconsult [at] gmail [dot] com

10-16-2012, 12:13 PM	#5
Fat Panda Porn is Dead. Move along. Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 13,292	BabesMoney.com hd glamcore porn site Babes.com has been converting extremely well for me.

10-17-2012, 01:30 PM	#31
bronco67 Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 29,035	But who likes this glam stuff -- women? My wife likes porn, and she digs seeing Rocco Sifffedi choke a bitch until her mascara is running. __________________

10-17-2012, 10:00 PM	#34
Radical Bucks So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: On the Beach Posts: 673	Dean Capture is a sell out, his views and opinions do not matter anymore since he is laying the Manwin bed, sucking Manwin cock. Dean is now accepting money from well documented content thieves. He is also now Ghetto posting Haters make us famous garbage. The word haters came from the Ghetto. This is a true reflection of who and what you are. Elementary mind set. You like looking at the males in boygirl porn. This new passion glam porn is mostly present the male body. Last edited by Radical Bucks; 10-17-2012 at 10:02 PM..

10-18-2012, 11:16 AM	#41
pornguy Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Homeless Posts: 62,903	To me its like watching a cable porn show. __________________ PornGuy skype me pornguy_epic AmateurDough The Hottes Shemales online! TChicks.com \| Angeles Cid \| Mariana Cordoba \| MAILERS WELCOME!

10-19-2012, 05:38 AM	#42
xanadu bot Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Barcelona Posts: 997	for sure there is a market and with internet tv(whatever form this can take) i expect it to grow much more in the near future. I personally the content being made today in this genre is still far from being female oriented (hopefully it will and this will open a really huge market at some point) but still does much better in licencing etc. Especially in europe this is a very profitable revenue stream for many producers. __________________ GFY Admin [email protected] https://linktr.ee/xxx

10-19-2012, 06:13 AM	#43
Axel_Crak Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Quebec Posts: 662	Bonjour Panos I like those kind of sites, way much better than hardcore stuff.. i guess in lil romatic Theses are premium content and good sellers http://met-art.com/ http://www.sexart.com/ __________________