Better Call Saul

[Relentless]

Show is starting to hit its stride. Too bad they do these ridiculously short seasons. Would love to see a twenty episode season like they used to do back in the days of Frasier and Mash.

[Zuzana Designs]

Nuts that it's almost over. Feels like it just started! I still to watch this week episode when I get some free time.

[mineistaken]

Originally Posted by Zuzana Designs

Nuts that it's almost over. Feels like it just started!

Indeed.
Saul

[selena]

Another vote in for hating short seasons. I've really liked this series so far. It's not BB, but there is no reason it should be. It's another story that just happens to have connecting tendrils.

Don't want to leave spoilers, but I think the back story of one of the characters has been kick ass thus far. Easy to see how his particular path changed.

[bronco67]

Sooooo good. I don't want to be premature about this, but I think it's as good as Breaking Bad, in it's own way.

I understand the short season though. AMC can't order a bunch of episodes on the first run.

But I think 12 or 13 episodes is the sweet spot. Any more than that and there's too much filler...just ask LOST.

[MetaMan]

Great show, i love the feel of it, only show i really go "crazy" about.

[mineistaken]

Originally Posted by bronco67

But I think 12 or 13 episodes is the sweet spot. Any more than that and there's too much filler...

Not relevant.
You can create 36 no filler episodes and make it 4*9, 3*12, 2 *18.
Same amount of filler.

[JFK]

Starting to get somewhere finally, didn't really like the few beginning episodes

[Axeman]

Loving it. 13 episodes is the number I like the most. Hopefully season 2 has that many.

[RandazzoXXX]

Originally Posted by Relentless

Show is starting to hit its stride. Too bad they do these ridiculously short seasons. Would love to see a twenty episode season like they used to do back in the days of Frasier and Mash.

Cable does shorter seasons, network TV usually does the 20+ episode thing and most of it is padded filler garbage episodes. There is a reason why the majority of the best dramas of all-time are cable shows.

[Evil Chris]

Another show that everyone is hyping like mad.

Worth watching I guess?

[bronco67]

Originally Posted by mineistaken

Not relevant.
You can create 36 no filler episodes and make it 4*9, 3*12, 2 *18.
Same amount of filler.

as usual, you make as little sense as possible.

[bronco67]

Originally Posted by Evil Chris

Another show that everyone is hyping like mad.

Worth watching I guess?

It's top tier.

[cosis]

I need to catch up on the last few episodes

[mineistaken]

Originally Posted by bronco67

as usual, you make as little sense as possible.

You make no sense at all. I make spot on sense in this case.

The amount of filler content depends on how much filler content is there, not how many episodes are segmented in one season. Not sure what is there not to understand. You can have 120 minutes of filler in 8 episodes, you can have 120 minutes of filler in 16 episodes. You can even have 200 minutes of filler in 8 episodes and 100 minutes of filler in 16 episodes. Or any other random number. It depends of how much filer the writers put in. And nothing to do with the amount of episodes.

Simple example, lets say writer likes to put in 10 minutes of filler per every episode. So how the fuck does it matter if the season has 8 or 16 episodes if there is on average 10min filler per each episode?

[bronco67]

Originally Posted by mineistaken

You make no sense at all. I make spot on sense in this case.

The amount of filler content depends on how much filler content is there, not how many episodes are segmented in one season. Not sure what is there not to understand. You can have 120 minutes of filler in 8 episodes, you can have 120 minutes of filler in 16 episodes. You can even have 200 minutes of filler in 8 episodes and 100 minutes of filler in 16 episodes. Or any other random number. It depends of how much filer the writers put in. And nothing to do with the amount of episodes.

Does anyone else understand this language?

[Martin]

Ive only recently started watching Breaking Bad. (Season 3)Great show. Will watch this one too once it hits netflix. Only way to watch a series imho.

BloodLines on NF has been very interesting so far too if anybody is looking for something..

[CourtneyR_FFN]

Love this show!

[C H R I S]

Starting to really love this show too... getting better with each episode.

[PiracyPitbull]

The main issue with BCS is the episodes seem too short, then its a weeks wait till the next.

I semi wish I'd waited till the season ends and dvr'd them instead so I could marathon it.

[mikesouth]

Its very slow...just as you think its gonna start going someplace that storyline dies. Black Sails is much better.

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by Relentless

Too bad they do these ridiculously short seasons.

I do not understand why they do this. With so much time between seasons.... I loose interest.

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by Rochard

I do not understand why they do this. With so much time between seasons.... I loose interest.

The ad revenue isn't what it used to be.... so they stretch content as thing as they can. Same reason porn DVDs now have 4 scenes on them instead of 7 or 8

[kane]

Originally Posted by Rochard

I do not understand why they do this. With so much time between seasons.... I loose interest.

Ad revenue is one thing, ratings are another and last is storyline. Shows like this know they can build via word of mouth. Breaking Bad did just that. It started off with low ratings then word of mouth built. Having just 10 episodes makes it easy to catch up on for those who are new to it it also allows for them to produce a quality product. They can make 10 slim, trim, high quality episodes that keep the fans wanting more as opposed to 15-20 episodes where half of the episodes are just filler and junk.

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by kane

Ad revenue is one thing, ratings are another and last is storyline. Shows like this know they can build via word of mouth. Breaking Bad did just that. It started off with low ratings then word of mouth built. Having just 10 episodes makes it easy to catch up on for those who are new to it it also allows for them to produce a quality product. They can make 10 slim, trim, high quality episodes that keep the fans wanting more as opposed to 15-20 episodes where half of the episodes are just filler and junk.

If the ad revenue was what is was in the 80s... The number of shows would be as well. The free content economy dilutes quality and people haven't accepted that quality content grows as content revenue grows.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Relentless

If the ad revenue was what is was in the 80s... The number of shows would be as well. The free content economy dilutes quality and people haven't accepted that quality content grows as content revenue grows.

I think ad revenue has something to do with it, but I don't think it is the only reason. The Walking Dead brings in around 14 million viewers per week. It is the top show on cable TV and in the Top 5 every week overall yet they only make 16 episodes. They could easily churn out 22-24 episodes a season with those kinds of ratings and still make a ton of money.

I think networks like AMC would rather give people 10-15 quality episodes and have them keep coming back and telling their friends than try to make a show that does okay and they can crank out 24 episodes a year of which half of them will suck.

Right now we are in a golden age of television and it is being led by cable TV shows. These cable channels seem to understand that sometimes less is more.

[Babaganoosh]

Saul Goodman = It's all good, man.

Can't believe it took me so long to catch that.

[C4W]

I love thes one.

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by kane

I think ad revenue has something to do with it, but I don't think it is the only reason. The Walking Dead brings in around 14 million viewers per week. It is the top show on cable TV and in the Top 5 every week overall yet they only make 16 episodes. They could easily churn out 22-24 episodes a season with those kinds of ratings and still make a ton of money. I think networks like AMC would rather give people 10-15 quality episodes and have them keep coming back and telling their friends than try to make a show that does okay and they can crank out 24 episodes a year of which half of them will suck. Right now we are in a golden age of television and it is being led by cable TV shows. These cable channels seem to understand that sometimes less is more.

Mash, Frasier, All In The Family and dozens of other shows put together seasons twice as long without any filler. The money was there to support it. AMC stretched the final season of BB into two mini seasons at the last minute as a cash grab. Writers and actors can churn out many more quality episodes in the same amount of time... But it's more profitable not to do so these days. If you think ten or twelve episodes a year is the most a show can produce, you think less of the writers and crew than I do. There is no financial incentive unfortunately.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Relentless

Mash, Frasier, All In The Family and dozens of other shows put together seasons twice as long without any filler. The money was there to support it. AMC stretched the final season of BB into two mini seasons at the last minute as a cash grab. Writers and actors can churn out many more quality episodes in the same amount of time... But it's more profitable not to do so these days. If you think ten or twelve episodes a year is the most a show can produce, you think less of the writers and crew than I do. There is no financial incentive unfortunately.

I think they can do it, but I think it is harder to do. I agree fully that ad revenue is down. Add in piracy and those who DVR and don't even see the commercials and revenue across the board is down the TV industry. However, I think if a lot of the shows that people think are great suddenly doubled the amount of episodes they put out every year the quality on some of them would drop.

I just think many shows these days would rather know for certain that they can make something good and keep the seasons shorter than hope they can do it and make the seasons longer. Not to mention when those 10-12 episodes seasons end up places like Netflix and the shows start getting good word of mouth or winning awards it makes it easy for people to go back and catch up. They can continue go grow their audience easier.

If you look back over the last 15 years only 3 network TV shows have won the Golden Globe for best dramatic series. The other 12 were all cable shows. I think a lot of executives see the trend and decide if it isn't broken don't fix it.

[Axeman]

Originally Posted by Relentless

Mash, Frasier, All In The Family and dozens of other shows put together seasons twice as long without any filler. The money was there to support it. AMC stretched the final season of BB into two mini seasons at the last minute as a cash grab. Writers and actors can churn out many more quality episodes in the same amount of time... But it's more profitable not to do so these days. If you think ten or twelve episodes a year is the most a show can produce, you think less of the writers and crew than I do. There is no financial incentive unfortunately.

I would say most of those mentioned shows had filler. Lots of toss away episodes in their seasons. The current big dog is Big Bang Theory, and I'd say only half of their episodes this season haven been anywhere near good quality. Same as the past couple seasons really. You could do 24 episodes a season, but the number of seasons you could have pure good quality episodes is very limited, before it gets stale. IMO.

There are too many shows, networks and avenues for writers to hone their craft, and you just don't get them all pooled together on a handful of shows at a network anymore.

13 episodes seems to be the sweet spot for pacing and quality.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Axeman

I would say most of those mentioned shows had filler. Lots of toss away episodes in their seasons. The current big dog is Big Bang Theory, and I'd say only half of their episodes this season haven been anywhere near good quality. Same as the past couple seasons really. You could do 24 episodes a season, but the number of seasons you could have pure good quality episodes is very limited, before it gets stale. IMO.

There are too many shows, networks and avenues for writers to hone their craft, and you just don't get them all pooled together on a handful of shows at a network anymore.

13 episodes seems to be the sweet spot for pacing and quality.

It also seems to me like some of the cable channels are starting to adopt that philosophy of bringing on a show creator with a specific vision and then letting them do their thing. If that means 10 episodes or 13 episodes great. I would rather have 13 badass episodes than 24 episodes and half of them suck.

I agree with your Big Bang analysis as well. I'm a fan of that show, but it seems like for every episode they have that is very funny and well done they have at least one where there are only a few good jokes and it is kind of like they are just killing time.

[Relentless]

Mash, Frasier and All In The Family had filler episodes? We disagree.

I recently watched every episode of Frasier on Netflix about a month ago. The series went on a season and a half longer than it should have, but up to that point they did 15-20 solid episodes a season.

BB final season was split in half solely as a money grab. AMC would do 4 shows a year if they could.... For the exact same reason porn DVDs now have 4 scenes on them instead of 7. It's not because pornstars have poor cardio... It's because it doesn't pay to include more content.

In any case, BCS is developing very nicely. Hopefully it doesn't suck balls next season. That's the bigger danger with short seasons. That you split up the cast and crew, lose the magic and put out a turd the way house of cards did in its most recent season.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Relentless

Mash, Frasier and All In The Family had filler episodes? We disagree.

I recently watched every episode of Frasier on Netflix about a month ago. The series went on a season and a half longer than it should have, but up to that point they did 15-20 solid episodes a season.

BB final season was split in half solely as a money grab. AMC would do 4 shows a year if they could.... For the exact same reason porn DVDs now have 4 scenes on them instead of 7. It's not because pornstars have poor cardio... It's because it doesn't pay to include more content.

In any case, BCS is developing very nicely. Hopefully it doesn't suck balls next season. That's the bigger danger with short seasons. That you split up the cast and crew, lose the magic and put out a turd the way house of cards did in its most recent season.

Just out of curiosity why do you think it is all revenue based? If a show is profitable making 12 episodes a season, in theory, so long as they keep the quality up and keep the audience engaged it should also be profitable at 24 episodes a season. Not to mention those extra episodes give them more to sell to places like Netflix and gets them closer to syndication numbers faster. Aside from perhaps having to pay the principles a little more for taking up more of their year with the show what is financially keeping any profitable show from just making more episodes?

[Relentless]

A show is generally good for X number of episodes from debut to series finale. You can release that many in one day or over 7 years. The pace is dictated by monetization more than anything else. Netflix makes a big deal out of letting people binge, but their pace is no faster than networks... They give you a season all at once but they don't give you more per year than a once a week show.

It used to be possible to hold an audience for months so 20 episodes were supported by weekly ad revenue. Now shows struggle to hold an audience for two months while piracy, DVRs, and media proliferation obliterate the ad revenue.

The result, just as in porn, is less content, weaker content, more re-runs, fewer worthwhile shows, inane 'reality' programming and the rest of the dreck that litters the line-up. The worst episode of BCS is light years ahead of the best episode of most shows on television. But you can earn more running the knife show and selling hunting knives to inbred asshats with insomnia at 4AM than you can make by adding another BCS episode to your weekly lineup.

[Jel]

Originally Posted by Relentless

A show is generally good for X number of episodes from debut to series finale. You can release that many in one day or over 7 years. The pace is dictated by monetization more than anything else. Netflix makes a big deal out of letting people binge, but their pace is no faster than networks... They give you a season all at once but they don't give you more per year than a once a week show.

It used to be possible to hold an audience for months so 20 episodes were supported by weekly ad revenue. Now shows struggle to hold an audience for two months while piracy, DVRs, and media proliferation obliterate the ad revenue.

The result, just as in porn, is less content, weaker content, more re-runs, fewer worthwhile shows, inane 'reality' programming and the rest of the dreck that litters the line-up. The worst episode of BCS is light years ahead of the best episode of most shows on television. But you can earn more running the knife show and selling hunting knives to inbred asshats with insomnia at 4AM than you can make by adding another BCS episode to your weekly lineup.

[CDSmith]

Perhaps AMC is taking a page from HBO/Showtime/MovieCentral, which all have multiple series over the past 10 - 30 years (HBO particularly) almost all of which followed the 10 to 12 episode per season schedule.

They leave it up to those regular networks to churn out the 24 episode series'es (series'es?) that they've always done.

I just set my PVR to collect all episodes and binge-watch them when I have time. Except for BCS, which I have been watching one by one as they debut. I guess this being it's first season, and in light of the fact I just recently binge-watched every episode of Breaking Bad, I can't seem to wait for weeks while the BCS episodes pile up.

Enjoying it so far though.

[CurrentlySober]

Originally Posted by Babaganoosh

Saul Goodman = It's all good, man.

Can't believe it took me so long to catch that.

I only caught that recently as well

[lezinterracial]

---------------------------
Spoilers below.

--------------------------



So what did you think of the last episode?

Why do you think Saul just suddenly turn at the end?

Was it the death of his friend and his friend saying "it was the best week of his life"?

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by lezinterracial

---------------------------
Spoilers So what did you think of the last episode? Why do you think Saul just suddenly turn at the end? Was it the death of his friend and his friend saying "it was the best week of his life"?

They needed to close off Jimmy's options. Any reasonable plan 'b' would destroy the future show by allowing Jimmy to have an extra out in his pocket. Now his brother is an adversary, he already burned his best shot at a big time firm, Marco died and his Chicago roots are gone.

Next season jimmy only has one direction to go in and that lends itself to drama. He can make choices but only more narrowly, like which train track to take, rather than open options like where to drive a car off road.

The irony is that his brother was right... so was nacho and Marco. He is slipping jimmy down deep. Guys like that can wear a suit and tie while trying to go white collar, but it itches emotionally until they get the hell out and sink back to their comfort level.

He turned because he finally decided to own who and what he is... After telling nacho he isn't, telling Mike he isn't, telling the kettlemans he isn't, telling Marco he isn't, telling his brother he isn't... He finally accepted he actually is what he is... And that's a very powerful moment in anyone's life.

Can't wait for season two now that jimmy has finally decided to become Saul

[lezinterracial]

Originally Posted by Relentless

Can't wait for season two now that jimmy has finally decided to become Saul

Yea, Me too. I like how he broke down at the Bingo hall and all the old people were worried about him.

Was hoping Gus would make an appearance. I have a feeling that is who Mike was talking about on the phone.

Watched part of Buckaroo Banzai on tv the other day. Saw a young Mike get killed by John Lithgow.

[PornDiscounts-V]

Fuck your mom?

[bronco67]

Yeah, the ring reminded him that being in a nice job like that is not for him...or maybe that he doesn't deserve it. I was really feeling like that whole episode was a waste, until the end.

[Jel]

I think this is just step 1 in his 'decline' (much like walter white had a series of turning points) as it turns out jimmy actually *is* a really nice guy. I feel this is the point where he decides that the other 'little guys' like himself need someone who can do things for them at a bigger level (maybe much like his brother could, albeit shit on him in the end (hi CS!!)). Don't forget we know he ends up as someone who doesn't rip people off, but does have zero qualms about taking money from people who he knows to be shady as fuck. So in that respect, he doesn't turn out to be like jimmy in that he'll stripe marks, but ends up as someone who will earn the money 'legitimately' through services rendered.

Turning points... all the above mentioned by others, also marco saying 'if you're a lawyer and you aren't making bank, you're doing it wrong'.

As for the series... took a long time to get there so more drawn out than I expected, far more tension building in it's own way than balls out like BB was, but I think most of us expected that after the 1st episode or 2 anyway. Very enjoyable

[CDSmith]

His old persona 'slippin'Jimmy' and his new lawyer self (defender of the old and weak) have now merged. His old Chicago roots may have dissipated but it served to drive home the notion that life ain't fair, and the slippin' Jimmy side of him is now speaking loudly---- "I'm gonna get mine"

He has morals, as we've seen. Those morals are going to butt heads with his new resolve over and over again in coming episodes/seasons. We all know where it ends but the journey is going to be fun to watch.

Will he ever hook up with his somewhat hot lawyer friend?

Should he?

All I know is I'll be watching for all the yahoo fans of this show out there who'll be in every hole-in-the-wall bar trying to pull the coin scam.

[Choopa Phil]

Love it! Watched all 10 episodes in 2 days. I think I like this better than Breaking Bad!

[BlackCrayon]

i'm going to wait for a few seasons then watch it though i still can't get over bob from mr show is now this big time drama guy.

[Relentless]

The conversation Mike has with Price is the key to the entire show. It lays it all out in one succinct statement....

"I've known good criminals and bad cops, bad priests, honorable thieves. You can be on one side of the law or the other, but if you make a deal with somebody, you keep your word. You can go home today with your money and never do this again, but you took soemthing that wasn't yours and you sold it for a profit. You are now a criminal. Good one, bad one, that's up to you." - Mike

Season one was all about exactly how Jimmy decided where he belongs on that spectrum

[kane]

Originally Posted by lezinterracial

---------------------------
Spoilers below.

--------------------------



So what did you think of the last episode?

Why do you think Saul just suddenly turn at the end?

Was it the death of his friend and his friend saying "it was the best week of his life"?

I think his going back to Chicago did two things for him. It allowed him to realize just how much he enjoys pulling the scams. It also allowed him to close the door on that part of his life. When he came back to New Mexico I think he had the realization that so far playing by the rules and doing the right thing have only made him miserable and not gotten him much of anything. He knows that no matter what he does his brother will always look down at him so he might as well have some fun and play by his rules.

[epitome]

A 10 episode season of an hour long drama produces the same amount of content as a 20 episode season of half hour comedy. Roughly 400 minutes vs 440.

I hated the first few episodes of Breaking Bad, but hung in there.
I hated the first few episodes of Better Call Saul, but hung in there.

Breaking Bad ended up being my favorite show ever. I think I am going to end up loving Better Call Saul, too. It is getting really good after a very slow start.