Americans, does it matter that Hillary Clinton lied and conned you?

[dyna mo]

"We?ve seen the heavy assault on our post in Benghazi that took the lives of those brave men. We?ve seen rage and violence directed at American embassies over an awful Internet video that we had nothing to do with.?

Those words, depraved words, were spoken by then?secretary of state Hillary Clinton, with President Obama by her side, on September 14, 2012. This was at Joint Base Andrews, during the most sacred of rites: the return of the remains of Sean Smith, Glen Doherty, Tyrone Woods, and Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens, all slain in the line of duty in Benghazi. And all slain, it must never be forgotten, by jihadists carrying out what Clinton, Obama, and high-ranking national-security officials throughout the United States government knew full well was a planned terrorist attack, not a ?protest? run amok and incited by ?an awful Internet video.?

That obvious fact is now explicit after Mrs. Clinton?s galling testimony on Thursday before the House select committee investigating the Benghazi massacre. Not only had the siege occurred on the eleventh anniversary of al-Qaeda?s 9/11 atrocities. Not only was Obama informed in the first minutes that a terrorist attack was underway. Not only had terrorist attacks in Benghazi been threatened and executed for months. Not only were mortars deployed by trained jihadists. Not only had Gregory Hicks, the senior State Department official on the ground in Libya after Ambassador Stevens was killed, directly briefed then-secretary Clinton about the then-ongoing terrorist attack ? the same Gregory Hicks who would later testify that the anti-Muslim Internet video was a ?non-event? in Benghazi.

What Hillary Knew Besides all that, we now know that, while the siege ensued, Clinton emailed daughter Chelsea to explain that Americans had been killed in Benghazi by ?an al Qaeda-like group.? This was about an hour before Clinton and Obama consulted by phone, immediately after which the State Department published Clinton?s mendacious ?blame the video? announcement: Some have sought to justify this vicious behavior as a response to inflammatory material posted on the Internet. The United States deplores any intentional effort to denigrate the religious beliefs of others. Our commitment to religious tolerance goes back to the very beginning of our nation.

Yes, Clinton and Obama knew it was a terrorist attack but tried to con the country into believing it was a spontaneous response to a video. A State Department memo documents that on the very next day after her duplicitous public statement, Clinton informed Egypt?s prime minister: ?We know that the attack in Libya had nothing to do with the film. . . . It was a planned attack ? not a protest.?

Read more at: Hillary Clinton, Benghazi Liar | National Review Online

[Robbie]

Not to roughly "47%" of us it doesn't matter. lol

[sandman!]

na we dont really care

[dyna mo]

i need a new guy, my guy(s) dropped out. i'm thinking i prefer the socialist over the liar. maybe even the loudmouth guy.

[Rob]

Hillary could openly admit she planted the charges to bring down the towers, started ISIS using Clinton Foundation money, eats live puppies for breakfast, sucks stem cells directly out of recently aborted fetuses, is SOLELY responsible for global warming, and thinks all of her followers are fucking morons -- and they would still worship her.

It's cognitive dissonance, and they're so enamored with her, or the idea of her, they flat out refuse to see anything she does as bad or wrong. Social psychology 101.

[pornguy]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

i need a new guy, my guy(s) dropped out. i'm thinking i prefer the socialist over the liar. maybe even the loudmouth guy.

Lets clarify one thing. If you attach the word Ploitician to anyone that means they lie for a living.

[crockett]

I think I care less about Hillary saying it was because of a internet video than I do about the fact congress can't get shit done. they can't pass any meaniful legislation, they can't pass a budget, they can't even elect a speaker of the house and nearly half of the govt is run by fucking lunatics from the fringes of the far right.

I mean fuck the govt is still in a sequster because Republicans can't pass a budget.. It's been going on for a few years now costing us millions.. Yet let's worry about Hillary saying something wrong after an attack or not saying something soon enough..

I think I care more about that, than I do if Hillary used the wrong words to talk about an embassy attack..


Meanwhile the same right wing retards who bitch and moan about Hillary, glorify a guy that sold weapons to terrorists in Iran.. They make up every excuse in the book to ignore the lies Bush and co told to the world and American people which directly led to thousands of U.S. And ally soldier dying.

I mean really Hillary's lie if it was a lie is more along the lines of getting a BJ in the WH.. Compared to getting thousands of troops killed and costing us billions of dollars.. Or selling guns to Iran who later attacked our troops..

It just doesn't compare.. Yet you won't bitch and moan about that..because Hillary..

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by pornguy

Lets clarify one thing. If you attach the word Ploitician to anyone that means they lie for a living.

I assumed that was obvious enough to not need to be mentioned. Nevertheless, you won't find any articles on Sanders blatantly being a perpetual liar, for instance.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by pornguy

Lets clarify one thing. If you attach the word Ploitician to anyone that means they lie for a living.

[brassmonkey]

nope

[Rob]

TOO MANY LAWYERS ARE BECOMING POLITICIANS. That's the problem. Anytime someone goes to a special school just to learn how to lie better, they should automatically be disqualified to run for public office.

[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by crockett

I think I care less about Hillary saying it was because of a internet video than I do about the fact congress can't get shit done. they can't pass any meaniful legislation, they can't pass a budget, they can't even elect a speaker of the house and nearly half of the govt is run by fucking lunatics from the fringes of the far right.

I mean fuck the govt is still in a sequster because Republicans can't pass a budget.. It's been going on for a few years now costing us millions.. Yet let's worry about Hillary saying something wrong after an attack or not saying something soon enough..

I think I care more about that, than I do if Hillary used the wrong words to talk about an embassy attack..


Meanwhile the same right wing retards who bitch and moan about Hillary, glorify a guy that sold weapons to terrorists in Iran.. They make up every excuse in the book to ignore the lies Bush and co told to the world and American people which directly led to thousands of U.S. And ally soldier dying.

I mean really Hillary's lie if it was a lie is more along the lines of getting a BJ in the WH.. Compared to getting thousands of troops killed and costing us billions of dollars.. Or selling guns to Iran who later attacked our troops..

It just doesn't compare.. Yet you won't bitch and moan about that..because Hillary..

Originally Posted by Rob

Hillary could openly admit she planted the charges to bring down the towers, started ISIS using Clinton Foundation money, eats live puppies for breakfast, sucks stem cells directly out of recently aborted fetuses, is SOLELY responsible for global warming, and thinks all of her followers are fucking morons -- and they would still worship her.

It's cognitive dissonance, and they're so enamored with her, or the idea of her, they flat out refuse to see anything she does as bad or wrong. Social psychology 101.

[crockett]

Also, how come none of Trump's lies matter but a few words spoken by Hillary after an attack are the end of the world? Meanwhile Trump lies about something stupid almost daily and he's glorified like the 2nd coming to you retards who worry so much about Hillary..

Please explain that one...oh I know because Hillary.. Just like before it was because Obama.. I will gladly vote for Hillary at this point because maybe she can do what Obama failed at.. Maybe she can cause the GOP to implode and get all these right wing nut jobs out of office..

Perhaps once the GOP destroys itself, we can get back to having a working govt again..

[Best-In-BC]

Didn't matter to people in my shit Provence, we re-elected a criminal party, at-least Harper is gone now, Trudeau would have a tough time doing as bad as the last guy. Anyone worth a cent doesn't like him, your a POS in my book if you like what Harper did, I hope you burn in the cage hell you help created for our future.

[Robbie]

That's easy crockett:
Trump isn't the Secretary of State for one thing.

And just because you don't think he can do what he says he wants to do doesn't make him a liar.

Weird that you can't differentiate between those easy concepts when you are in "hate" mode.

[Vendzilla]

Originally Posted by Rob

TOO MANY LAWYERS ARE BECOMING POLITICIANS. That's the problem. Anytime someone goes to a special school just to learn how to lie better, they should automatically be disqualified to run for public office.

Aren't most Democrats lawyers? The last Republican that was a lawyer was Gerald Ford. I think the only lawyers running for office are Hillary and Bernie.

[Barry-xlovecam]

All of the candidates that the two main parties are presenting are useless P(s)OS.
I may have to sit this one out or make my vote toward my very own narrowest interests.
We are becoming a very selfish society in the USA and that sucks -- we are better than that (?)

Look for a 60% voter turnout this 'selection'

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Robbie

That's easy crockett:
Trump isn't the Secretary of State for one thing.

And just because you don't think he can do what he says he wants to do doesn't make him a liar.

Weird that you can't differentiate between those easy concepts when you are in "hate" mode.

No Robbie he's running for the job of president of the United States.. He lies almost daily..

If it were Obama or Hillary lying like he does you guys would have your panties in a bunge, crying endlessly.. Yet you guys ignore it because he's on your team and rant and rave for months because Hillary didn't classify and attack fast enough to make you happy..

Not to mention the countless changing stories of your rants and raves.. I mean hell I remember arguing specifically with you about the whole "stand down orders" being a completely fabrication, but you believed it hook line and sinker.. Yet what did it turn out to be? Yep a lie from Republicans trying to go after Hillary. The simple fact is Republicans have lied, distorted the truth in every single one of these investigations, yet you don't care because they are your team..

End result if Hillary had called it a terrorist attack on day one.. Not a fucking thing would have changed.. 4 people would still be dead. You guys are crying over spilled milk because you want to play politics.

Meanwhile the very same congress who tries to vilify her, voted not to properly fund that very embassy as well as every other US embassy in the world. Yet oh that's not a big deal..

You guys are 100% hypocrites.. You whine and whine and whine, then make excuses when it's your team..

I'm voting for Hillary just to piss you guys off.. so we can see the countless whines for the next 4 years.. I mean hell, it's not like any Republicans actually have a chance anyway.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by crockett

Also, how come none of Trump's lies matter but a few words spoken by Hillary after an attack are the end of the world? Meanwhile Trump lies about something stupid almost daily and he's glorified like the 2nd coming to you retards who worry so much about Hillary..

Please explain that one...oh I know because Hillary.. Just like before it was because Obama.. I will gladly vote for Hillary at this point because maybe she can do what Obama failed at.. Maybe she can cause the GOP to implode and get all these right wing nut jobs out of office..

Perhaps once the GOP destroys itself, we can get back to having a working govt again..

calling people retards because they're trying to make a smart voting choice is very liberal (intolerant) of you, i'm not surprised.

this thread doesn't mean Trump lying doesn't matter, of course it does. the difference [for me] is Trump lies because he's not a politician, Hills lies because she is.

and i've not seen a Trump lie that Trumps Hillary conning the US people about a terrorist attack on America.

[gnawledge]

The American people know it was a con job. Foreigners who pretend to be Americans or informed don't care or blame Republicans. Some should stick to sucking Yandex's dick.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Vendzilla

Aren't most Democrats lawyers? The last Republican that was a lawyer was Gerald Ford. I think the only lawyers running for office are Hillary and Bernie.

The Republican candidates that are lawyers:

Chris Christie, Ted Cruz, Jim Gilmore, Lindsey Graham, George Pataki, Marco Rubio, Rick Santorum, and Scott Walker.

Democratic candidates that are lawyers:

Hillary Clinton, Marin O'Malley, Jim Webb (now running as Independent), and just in case, Joe Biden. The only two Democrats who aren't lawyers is Bernie and Lincoln Chafee. But Chafee just dropped out of the race.

EDIT: I just looked it up just to be sure, and Chafee has a degree from Montana State University for Horseshoeing. I didn't even know that was a fucking course, much less something you can degree in.

[Penny24Seven]

Originally Posted by Rob

Hillary could openly admit she planted the charges to bring down the towers, started ISIS using Clinton Foundation money, eats live puppies for breakfast, sucks stem cells directly out of recently aborted fetuses, is SOLELY responsible for global warming, and thinks all of her followers are fucking morons -- and they would still worship her.

It's cognitive dissonance, and they're so enamored with her, or the idea of her, they flat out refuse to see anything she does as bad or wrong. Social psychology 101.

HAHA well said

[astronaut x]

This thread is pointless.

[Rochard]

I am still not sure Hillary lied to us. And even if she did, she did nothing wrong.

As this event was unfolding, we weren't sure what was happening no less what caused it. Pressed for answers as to what caused this we went with what we thought best. End of story.

Just for the fun of things, let's say Hillary lied. Our government decided it was in our best interests to say "this was because locals were upset about a video" instead of saying "This was a military style attack on a CIA outpost". Our government should never be discussing what the CIA does in other countries unless they are caught red handed in breaking the law, which is not the case here. If our government was trying to cover up a CIA operation I am perfectly okay with this - Right now yet again in Germany they are upset because they caught us spying on them again.

The real crime is this investigation. During the Bush administration there was 13 attacks on US embassys, 66 people died, 3 American diplomats, and 22 embassy employees were killed - yet we didn't have one investigation into what happened. During the Obama administration we've had two embassy attacks, 4 American deaths, and 13 investigations. We do not need Congress to investigate what happened; We know what happened - it was a terrorist attack.

This needs to stop. It just makes Republicans look bad. This is beating a dead horse to death in an attempt to make a political candidate look bad.

[brassmonkey]

Originally Posted by astronaut x

This thread is pointless.

how many actually vote??? i do every election. glad kerry didn't win. he had a bad temper out in public. he punches walls

[crockett]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

calling people retards because they're trying to make a smart voting choice is very liberal (intolerant) of you, i'm not surprised.

this thread doesn't mean Trump lying doesn't matter, of course it does. the difference [for me] is Trump lies because he's not a politician, Hills lies because she is.

and i've not seen a Trump lie that Trumps Hillary conning the US people about a terrorist attack on America.

A smart voting choice.. Give me a break, the GOP hasn't run a canidate who would be a smart voting choice in decades.

The GOP can't even elect a speaker of the house where they have a solid majority. What makes you think they can elect a president?

Trump doesn't stand a chance.. He's like Micheal Jackson to retarded kids.. They go crazy soon as Thriller starts playing and that's all Trump is to the far right fringe,

Ben Carson is totally nuts with his Relgious views. Yet he still has a better chance than Trump but still no real chance in hell of being president. He certainly won't get the minority votes the GOP thinks he will and southern white Republicans sure as hell won't vote for him.. Trust me I know because I grew up there..

Much worse is I'm the exact voter Republicans put all their eggs in one basket trying to get, as I'm a white male and even I can't stand their shit and I'm certainly not alone.


Face it Hillary will be the next president. Despite all the ranting and raving and attacks from the right, she has come through with no issues. In fact Republicans have helped her because everyone who isn't a brain dead knuckle dragger can see its all politically motivated.

Personally I was hoping for Sanders, but he just isn't getting it done despite being the better canidate IMO.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by astronaut x

This thread is pointless.

yet here you are.

[VRPdommy]

You don't have to convince me not to like her as I never liked her or her husband.

We were lied to about NAFTA, WMD's in Iraq, the value of sub-prime mortgage, that we needed to DE-regulate the savings and loans and that Glass Steagle needed repealed etc etc etc.

It has not prohibited any of those folks that did the deeds. Most have better positions than they had and nobody went to jail despite the fact of costing the American Consumer more than the National Debt just for the above.

And you want me to hate her for poor/failed intelligence from others that got to keep their job.
Sorry, I hate her for other reasons.

[Horatio Caine]

Not since Bush said it was ok to lie.

[venus]

they all lie, look at the bush admin release of the CIA identity of Valerie Plame, the invasion of Iraq (which killed more then 4000 americans) and all the other lies. they all lie. why just single out Clinton. if you see one party as always being wrong and don't speak up when the other does the same, then you are part of the problem.

Originally Posted by dyna mo

"We?ve seen the heavy assault on our post in Benghazi that took the lives of those brave men. We?ve seen rage and violence directed at American embassies over an awful Internet video that we had nothing to do with.?

[ilnjscb]

I support Hillary. I don't support her stance on Snowden, her political correctness, her inability to be who she is on camera, although this is harder than everyone thinks it is. I don't think I would have looked twice at her without her husband, a truly great human being.

She is a proven conservative dem. She is energetic and effective, and though she is expedient, she knows that most politicians are utter scum who would sooner stab you and drink your blood than give up power. Hell, most federal government employees and ALL federal contractors would do that. Who cares if she plays their game against them? She retains some of her humanity, while most of them participate in this absurd charade without understanding it at all.

Also, repubs hold both houses and won't give them up this time. We need a dem as president so the repubs can't show us what they're really capable of.

Get this; most of us indeps (40% of USA, or, the "thinkers") WANT gridlock. We prefer a stalemate to the nightmarish dystopias that you "party faithful" would create.

With repubs, we'd be cotton slaves to Lord Bush, Duke of Texas, working our way up to oil slave, then house slave.

With dems, we'd be Ze comrade (ColorlessCisMale) 352671A sentenced to 20 years hard labor for thought crime and genetic racism.

Strangely, with both parties, expensive foreign wars and a burgeoning domestic spying seem just fine - the differences evaporate when it comes to those. Those things generate unaudited cash payments and allow party rulers to keep the reigns on power.

I hope this little rant provides a more nuanced look at a Hillary supporter for you.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by venus

they all lie, look at the bush admin release of the CIA identity of Valerie Plame, the invasion of Iraq (which killed more then 4000 americans) and all the other lies. they all lie. why just single out Clinton. if you see one party as always being wrong and don't speak up when the other does the same, then you are part of the problem.

i can damn well single out Hillary to scrutinize as i please in my search for a candidate to vote for president. she's the one running for president and i'm supposed to do my due diligence in vetting candidates. when i search for Sanders and lying nothing really comes up, i'm not going to start a thread about nothing. when i search for Trump and lies i get anecdotal lies usually used to make a point. when i searched for Hillary Clinton lies, i get pages and pages of results.

so it also really doesn't make sense to assume the things you assume.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by ilnjscb

I hope this little rant provides a more nuanced look at a Hillary supporter for you.

i'm actually interested in reasons to vote for HIllary, not necc. interested in better understanding diehard party loyalists. i've voted dems for quite a while now but i don't identify as a democrat and certain not as a liberal. i'm always open to scrutinizing all the candidates and picking the one i want, regardless of party.

that said, i took a quiz recently that concluded i'm a socialist democrat and should vote for Sanders.

[ilnjscb]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

i'm actually interested in reasons to vote for HIllary, not necc. interested in better understanding diehard party loyalists. i've voted dems for quite a while now but i don't identify as a democrat and certain not as a liberal. i'm always open to scrutinizing all the candidates and picking the one i want, regardless of party.

that said, i took a quiz recently that concluded i'm a socialist democrat and should vote for Sanders.

If you say so. I'd want to look more closely at a candidate that came out of nowhere and hasn't had any negative press, nor any accomplishments as a leader. To my way of thinking, and many others, he is a media placeholder elevated so there'd be any revenue at all from the race. To each his own, though.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by ilnjscb

If you say so. I'd want to look more closely at a candidate that came out of nowhere and hasn't had any negative press, nor any accomplishments as a leader. To my way of thinking, and many others, he is a media placeholder elevated so there'd be any revenue at all from the race. To each his own, though.

not sure why you assume i'm not closely scrutinizing each of the candidates, but i am. i've got serious reservations re: Sanders.

but back to this thread, sure, we all know all politicians lie, but not all politicians get caught out lying like Hillary has. That's the difference. at least i thought that was the difference, which is why i started the thread, perhaps it's come to the point where being busted outright bamboozling the American people no longer means anything. hell, I'm open to adjusting my view, I need a candidate to vote for. but it's been my understanding that yes, politicians lie, but they don't get caught lying and when they do, that's kind of a deal breaker.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

not sure why you assume i'm not closely scrutinizing each of the candidates, but i am. i've got serious reservations re: Sanders.

but back to this thread, sure, we all know all politicians lie, but not all politicians get caught out lying like Hillary has. That's the difference. at least i thought that was the difference, which is why i started the thread, perhaps it's come to the point where being busted outright bamboozling the American people no longer means anything. hell, I'm open to adjusting my view, I need a candidate to vote for. but it's been my understanding that yes, politicians lie, but they don't get caught lying and when they do, that's kind of a deal breaker.

Candidates get caught lying all the time.. Why do you make a big deal over Hillary?

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by crockett

Candidates get caught lying all the time.. Why do you make a big deal over Hillary?

1. bernie sanders doesn't get caught lying all the time. that's just one example, keep your head in the sand if you wish but Hills has a credibility problem. that's a fact revealed in poll after poll. not every politician has a credibility problem and that's because not every politician gets caught bamboozling Americans.

2. i make it a big deal to scrutinize the living shit out of each and every candidate running for President of the USA.

[DavieVegas]

Every president/presidential candidate does it. Why is this one any different?

[JFK]

Originally Posted by sandman!

na we dont really care

agreed , they all lie

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by DavieVegas

Every president/presidential candidate does it. Why is this one any different?

you tell me. according to poll after poll, Hillary Clinton has a trustworthiness problem. it's followed her around for years in spite of what you and others keep pointing out- that all politicians lie;, nevertheless, they are not all thought of as untrustworthy, like Hillary is.

[Vendzilla]

Originally Posted by Rob

The Republican candidates that are lawyers:

Chris Christie, Ted Cruz, Jim Gilmore, Lindsey Graham, George Pataki, Marco Rubio, Rick Santorum, and Scott Walker.

Democratic candidates that are lawyers:

Hillary Clinton, Marin O'Malley, Jim Webb (now running as Independent), and just in case, Joe Biden. The only two Democrats who aren't lawyers is Bernie and Lincoln Chafee. But Chafee just dropped out of the race.

EDIT: I just looked it up just to be sure, and Chafee has a degree from Montana State University for Horseshoeing. I didn't even know that was a fucking course, much less something you can degree in.

Interesting..

Yes, they are called Farriers, they specialize in a horse's foot and everything to do with it, more than just a blacksmith. I had to get them over to my property twice a year when I had horses for my daughter.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by crockett

No Robbie he's running for the job of president of the United States.. He lies almost daily..

Instead of name calling...link us up to one of his "lies".

Then google up all the lies that Sen. Obama made when running for President.

Then google up the definition of "hypocrite" while you stare into the mirror.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by crockett

No Robbie he's running for the job of president of the United States.. He lies almost daily..

You guys are 100% hypocrites.. You whine and whine and whine, then make excuses when it's your team..

Originally Posted by crockett

Candidates get caught lying all the time.. Why do you make a big deal over Hillary?

You don't even realize what you are typing do you?

[Paul Markham]

Imagine for a moment a Democrat had declared war on a State for the wrong reasons, had weakened an ongoing offensive by going to a war for maed up reasons, has allowed the Bin Ladens to fly out of the US after 9/11, ignored Pre-9/11 Terror Memo, proclaimed "Mission Accomplished" long before the last US serviceman was killed in the ME, insisting there was a link between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda, Refusing to let Katrina ruin his holiday, Underestimating the cost of the war, Awarding lucrative Iraq reconstruction contracts to Halliburton, The 2003 leak of Valerie Plame's identity, and more.

There's not enough Congressmen to go over his mistakes. No worries though, some Republicans will tell us it was a long time ago.

[ilnjscb]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

not sure why you assume i'm not closely scrutinizing each of the candidates, but i am. i've got serious reservations re: Sanders.

but back to this thread, sure, we all know all politicians lie, but not all politicians get caught out lying like Hillary has. That's the difference. at least i thought that was the difference, which is why i started the thread, perhaps it's come to the point where being busted outright bamboozling the American people no longer means anything. hell, I'm open to adjusting my view, I need a candidate to vote for. but it's been my understanding that yes, politicians lie, but they don't get caught lying and when they do, that's kind of a deal breaker.

I'm not assuming anything about you, I said "I'd want" meaning, thats how I formed my own opinion. But I have to agree with most of the posters here. Bernie Sanders has never led anything or had any real responsibility; so he merely hasn't had a chance to be caught in a "lie". Hillary Clinton has been in the public eye since 1992 and was secretary of state, arguably the role right after president that has the hardest calls since they involve other countries. People are still friggin debating Kissinger.

Politicians, as a class, believe that they have to kiss up to donors, lie to voters, put on a good show for the cameras, and do everything they can to harm opponents. They believe voters are fat, uninformed lazy walmart losers, a view they share with much of the rest of the world. They care much less about altruism than they do about staying in power at any cost. No one wants to go back to being little people.

Even the great Donald is now touting his Christianity - hilarious, and yet he is one of the more honest republicans. Oddly, though everyone here hates him, Carsen seems fairly honest, but 10 to 1 that doesn't last 6 months. Cheney was, as everyone knows, outright evil. He never met a lie he didn't want to tell.

I would advocate taking a 4D view - as in, if this person wins, what will happen? Now ask yourself if Old Man Yells at Cloud Sanders will get any of his big ideas through a republican house or senate? He has no voter mandate, though he would be the first Jewish president. What would happen if Jovencito Rubio wins? "Establishment" republican feeding frenzy, another 2 tril handed to already rich people. Donald? Who the hell knows?

I'm not saying you don't do any of that, I'm advocating it for anyone. The only candidate I personally believe will be able to match and curtail the political machinations of the far right republicans is Hillary C.