RIP Phoenix Forum

[Rochard]

Holy shit.

So, it is with mixed emotions that CCBill announces that we will not be producing The Phoenix Forum for 2020. The needs of the industry have changed, and with that, so must change the trade conferences which support the business.

https://www.thephoenixforum.com/tpfn...-phoenix-forum

[Bladewire]

Ah man that's sad

[yuu.design]

sad to hear

[crockett]

I blame the tubes

[wasteland]

Very sad news indeed.

[brassmonkey]

Originally Posted by crockett

I blame the tubes

blame the crackdown on spam. the whales are still swimming the guppies are shit now

[Busty2]

# Thanks Chump !

[King Mark]

Never went

[Busty2]

Originally Posted by Dead Eye

Never went

Of all the shows i think it was the best

[DukeSkywalker]

Tubes + cam hookers

[Robbie]

We went this year for the first time since 2009.
But there was nothing for us there. We actually left on the morning of the third day and wasted money on the hotel room that day (we were booked for the whole show).

Without a healthy affiliate and paysite model for adult...there isn't really any need for a show.

No new business for a pornographer, affiliate, and paysite owner like myself to be had at an adult convention with this current business environment.

I think we are going to start attending the fan shows like Exxotica and see how that rolls. At least it will be fun.

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by Busty2

Of all the shows i think it was the best

I've heard the same.

CCBILL is top notch

[imabro]

Originally Posted by Bladewire

I've heard the same.

CCBILL is top notch

You just proved that you do not live in Monarch Beach. No way would a program owner not go to TPF when it was so close.

You really do lie about everything don't you?

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by Robbie

We went this year for the first time since 2009.
But there was nothing for us there. We actually left on the morning of the third day and wasted money on the hotel room that day (we were booked for the whole show).

Without a healthy affiliate and paysite model for adult...there isn't really any need for a show.

No new business for a pornographer, affiliate, and paysite owner like myself to be had at an adult convention with this current business environment.

I think we are going to start attending the fan shows like Exxotica and see how that rolls. At least it will be fun.

I completely disagree with that. You shouldn't be going to a show ONLY to find affiliates. You should go to shows to meet other people like you and get tips and advice from them.

I went to the pizza expo in Vegas this year (shhh) and.... All of the pizza joints aren't there to get customers. They are there to learn.

[SBJ]

Sad news. I went '03 to '08 and loved that show.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Rochard

I completely disagree with that. You shouldn't be going to a show ONLY to find affiliates. You should go to shows to meet other people like you and get tips and advice from them.

I went to the pizza expo in Vegas this year (shhh) and.... All of the pizza joints aren't there to get customers. They are there to learn.

With so few paysites and affiliates pushing paysites there's no need for either to turn up to speak to people only interested in selling/buying traffic which can be done online.

With so much free porn where's the need to buy porn?

With so much low quality porn, where's the need to buy month after month of porn?

I bought a month's membership to a site that sold Ben Dover's porn last month. I was looking for scenes he did with girls I knew.

Within a month I had downloaded the sites entire library. Most of it was other producers scenes, the large majority were crap. No real intro, reason to fuck or identity to separate scene from scene, bad angles and lighting. So I deleted most of the other scenes.

Why pay $30 a month for that crap? And don't tell me it was amateur, that's no excuse for crap with professionals models.

I predicted free porn will bring about the decline of this industry 20 years ago and now it's happened.

[Klen]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

With so few paysites and affiliates pushing paysites there's no need for either to turn up to speak to people only interested in selling/buying traffic which can be done online.

With so much free porn where's the need to buy porn?

With so much low quality porn, where's the need to buy month after month of porn?

I bought a month's membership to a site that sold Ben Dover's porn last month. I was looking for scenes he did with girls I knew.

Within a month I had downloaded the sites entire library. Most of it was other producers scenes, the large majority were crap. No real intro, reason to fuck or identity to separate scene from scene, bad angles and lighting. So I deleted most of the other scenes.

Why pay $30 a month for that crap? And don't tell me it was amateur, that's no excuse for crap with professionals models.

I predicted free porn will bring about the decline of this industry 20 years ago and now it's happened.

Ah well it's not really a rocket science to make such prediction.

[jscott]

Originally Posted by KlenTelaris

Ah well it's not really a rocket science to make such prediction.

says the rocket scientist

RIP TPF

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by KlenTelaris

Ah well it's not really a rocket science to make such prediction.

20 years ago everyone said I was crazy.

I told you that free porn would kill magazines, now it turns out free everything is slowly all magazines.

I told you huge sites for $30 would slowly kill DVD porn.

I told you that most new business was coming from offline to online porn. When that's gone there is no more.

2019 shows are in decline, most boards have died and few people earn 100% of a good living from porn.

Traffic is king

(so long as you have the most and best free porn content)

[Matyko]

Originally Posted by Rochard

I completely disagree with that. You shouldn't be going to a show ONLY to find affiliates. You should go to shows to meet other people like you and get tips and advice from them.

!!! T H I S !!!

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by Rochard

Holy shit.

So, it is with mixed emotions that CCBill announces that we will not be producing The Phoenix Forum for 2020. The needs of the industry have changed, and with that, so must change the trade conferences which support the business.

https://www.thephoenixforum.com/tpfn...-phoenix-forum

you blaming trump?

[Vendzilla]

You guys are missing the true tragedy here, no more strip Dodge ball

[Klen]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

20 years ago everyone said I was crazy.

I told you that free porn would kill magazines, now it turns out free everything is slowly all magazines.

I told you huge sites for $30 would slowly kill DVD porn.

I told you that most new business was coming from offline to online porn. When that's gone there is no more.

2019 shows are in decline, most boards have died and few people earn 100% of a good living from porn.

Traffic is king

(so long as you have the most and best free porn content)

20 years ago was year 1999, there was no webmaster boards yet then, so where did you said that ?

[Klen]

Originally Posted by Rochard

I completely disagree with that. You shouldn't be going to a show ONLY to find affiliates. You should go to shows to meet other people like you and get tips and advice from them.

What if you are affiliate, what to do on show then ?

[CaptainHowdy]

Sign of the dimes . . .

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Robbie

We went this year for the first time since 2009.
But there was nothing for us there. We actually left on the morning of the third day and wasted money on the hotel room that day (we were booked for the whole show).

Without a healthy affiliate and paysite model for adult...there isn't really any need for a show.

No new business for a pornographer, affiliate, and paysite owner like myself to be had at an adult convention with this current business environment.

I think we are going to start attending the fan shows like Exxotica and see how that rolls. At least it will be fun.

I have never gone to TPF but I have been to enough European shows to totally 100% agree with you! These shows now are nothing more than traffic sellers doing the traffic circle jerk game, cam models, dick pills and dating offers. Oh - and 3rd party billers like CCBill.

So there's nothing there for content producers, paysite owners, affiliates or anyone else who isn't buying/selling traffic or promoting cams.

I wonder how long it will be before the European shows start to close down?

[Klen]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

I have never gone to TPF but I have been to enough European shows to totally 100% agree with you! These shows now are nothing more than traffic sellers doing the traffic circle jerk game, cam models, dick pills and dating offers. Oh - and 3rd party billers like CCBill.

So there's nothing there for content producers, paysite owners, affiliates or anyone else who isn't buying/selling traffic or promoting cams.

I wonder how long it will be before the European shows start to close down?

TES will never close down for simple reason - Andreas figured out how porn is going to shitter and focusing his show to be "universal" show and so far it's working good for him as numbers are growing by each year. But it's still porn show no matter how hard someone would try to deny it.

[Evil Chris]

An unprecedented run. Thank you CCBill for the many years of top-shelf shows!

[celandina]

Most of these shows years back were to put producers togheter with web sellers. Once that changed and everybody is just trading the same shit over and over, this could have been predicted. The upside of all of this is, that it is not far away when the recycled shit will no longer be of interest to anybody, so a new and good quality content will be made and then new sellers will pop up and the whole "shebang" will start over again.

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by KlenTelaris

20 years ago was year 1999, there was no webmaster boards yet then, so where did you said that ?

Sssshhhh just let him think he's a fortune teller savant and none of us said the same thing when tubes actually came along

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

20 years ago everyone said I was crazy.

I told you that free porn would kill magazines, now it turns out free everything is slowly all magazines.

I told you huge sites for $30 would slowly kill DVD porn.

I told you that most new business was coming from offline to online porn. When that's gone there is no more.

2019 shows are in decline, most boards have died and few people earn 100% of a good living from porn.

Traffic is king

(so long as you have the most and best free porn content)

I told you so

I told you so

I told you so!


And look who's still in the business... and look who's not

You never adapted Paul Markham.

You didn't see the forest from the trees Paul.

You thought business-to-business content creation sales was the way to sustain yourself in the industry when tubes came along.

You didn't adapt to direct to consumer sales and now you're extinct.

Also your prediction of tubes completely destroying the industry in 20 years is wrong.

Why?

Because as you can see with recent legislation, governments are all started to force platforms to be responsible for the content they disseminate. This regulation is going to be the savior of the porn industry and its going beyond age verification.

Anyway we all become extinct at one point or another. We've all had good runs, some of us are still having good runs. There are always bumps in the road but we continue on

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by KlenTelaris

20 years ago was year 1999, there was no webmaster boards yet then, so where did you said that ?

uh, yes there were.

Paul wasn't allowed to post on any of them but they existed.

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

uh, yes there were.

Paul wasn't allowed to post on any of them but they existed.

Oh I misread that post, I thought Klen said tubes weren't around in 1999

Paul thinks he was telling everyone 8 years before the first tube was created that tubes would kill the industry

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

With so few paysites and affiliates pushing paysites there's no need for either to turn up to speak to people only interested in selling/buying traffic which can be done online.

With so much free porn where's the need to buy porn?

With so much low quality porn, where's the need to buy month after month of porn?

I bought a month's membership to a site that sold Ben Dover's porn last month. I was looking for scenes he did with girls I knew.

Within a month I had downloaded the sites entire library. Most of it was other producers scenes, the large majority were crap. No real intro, reason to fuck or identity to separate scene from scene, bad angles and lighting. So I deleted most of the other scenes.

Why pay $30 a month for that crap? And don't tell me it was amateur, that's no excuse for crap with professionals models.

I predicted free porn will bring about the decline of this industry 20 years ago and now it's happened.

There is no shortage of paysites. These days we don't have enough affiliates. Ten years ago the show was full of affiliates - everyone WANTED to be an affiliate and WANTED to go to the shows.

Why would someone pay for a paysite? Simple. Because they like the content. If you like a certain niche - teen lesbians for example - you search until you find a site that delivers exactly what you want time after time again. With free porn it's easy to find porn, but difficult to find exactly what you want.

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by KlenTelaris

What if you are affiliate, what to do on show then ?

There aren't many affilaites these days....

I am an affiliate; I still run a handful of blogs and still make money off of them every month.

[CaptainHowdy]

Originally Posted by Evil Chris

An unprecedented run. Thank you CCBill for the many years of top-shelf shows!

That is the attitude . . .

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by KlenTelaris

20 years ago was year 1999, there was no webmaster boards yet then, so where did you said that ?

I was told this by a porn billionaire and a porn millionaire. Paul Raymond and David Sullivan said these things.

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by Rochard

Ten years ago the show was full of affiliates - everyone WANTED to be an affiliate and WANTED to go to the shows.

Yeah and every affiliate wanted 10 banners in different sizes than ever other affiliate wanted and after all the work you'd get 12 clicks from them

Now the affiliates left are awesome top notch and know exactly what they are doing but traffic is harder for them to get now. Sucks

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Rochard

You should go to shows to meet other people like you and get tips and advice from them.

Only a fool gives out tips to people wanting to do the same as he does. Do you really expect people to encourage and help the enemy?

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by celandina

Most of these shows years back were to put producers togheter with web sellers. Once that changed and everybody is just trading the same shit over and over, this could have been predicted. The upside of all of this is, that it is not far away when the recycled shit will no longer be of interest to anybody, so a new and good quality content will be made and then new sellers will pop up and the whole "shebang" will start over again.

There's enough free porn online to satisfy 99.9% of the consuming market. So the cost of production vs the ROI will rule. To produce a new scene isn't enough unless the new scene has something the 100,000s of scenes in the same style/niche don't have. Then there's the skills of the producer. Every day the good producers are falling and new ones aren't replacing them. Because they can't build experience.

A good couple's porn scene starts at $2,000, plus buying the equipment and that can send the costs rocketing. Consider it has to be different from all the other scenes.

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Only a fool gives out tips to people wanting to do the same as he does. Do you really expect people to encourage and help the enemy?

This is pretty much why I never went to shows.

I have always cultivated my own traffic & marketed my content so I didn't really need affiliates. What affiliates I did have I met online and they approached me, or I made some posts on a forum and they replied.

No reason to go to a show to meet the competition and be around a bunch of people you don't know that are getting drunk and fighting and I dunno. the show's look fun. They seemed really intimidating and chaotic to me. I know I'm likely wrong because the people who go to the shows always talk about how much they loved the shows and I've never been to a show so they would know better than me.

I'm best one-on-one in a focused situation but the shows always seemed like going to a high school reunion to me. I've also never been to high school reunions despite friends on Facebook trying to get me to go for years and years and years, longer than people in the industry have been trying to get me to go to shows

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Only a fool gives out tips to people wanting to do the same as he does. Do you really expect people to encourage and help the enemy?

I'm pretty sure that what Rochard doesn't understand is: there aren't any people there able to give people like me "tips".

And I love my friends and partners in billing and hosting. But we already do business. Great to see them in person and have a drink.

BUT...when the business was strong, these shows had a lot of ROI.
We always made a ton of money at the show, and even more over the year that followed the show from the business we picked up at the show.

We also used to shoot a ton of content while at the show. Which also led to making a lot of money.

Not so much anymore.

As a business owner, I look for some kind of return of investment. Just going to the shows and being seen by the same people over and over has no real value to me.
Especially when there is nobody there to do new business with me.

It's not the fault of the shows.

It's the state of the industry. Without a healthy business model there is no reason for them to exist.

Why would companies be jumping to fund and sponsor these shows if it doesn't help their bottom line?

That's why I said we are gonna try out the fan shows. Exxotica in Portland, Oregon is our next stop in June.

At least we will have a good time, shoot a lot of content, and market our brand to the consumers.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

With so few paysites and affiliates pushing paysites there's no need for either to turn up to speak to people only interested in selling/buying traffic which can be done online.

With so much free porn where's the need to buy porn?

With so much low quality porn, where's the need to buy month after month of porn?

I bought a month's membership to a site that sold Ben Dover's porn last month. I was looking for scenes he did with girls I knew.

Within a month I had downloaded the sites entire library. Most of it was other producers scenes, the large majority were crap. No real intro, reason to fuck or identity to separate scene from scene, bad angles and lighting. So I deleted most of the other scenes.

Why pay $30 a month for that crap? And don't tell me it was amateur, that's no excuse for crap with professionals models.

I predicted free porn will bring about the decline of this industry 20 years ago and now it's happened.

Paul you were saying the same exact shit when I joined GFY ten years ago. THE SAME EXACT SHIT!

And yet here I am, now with over 100 paysites in my various Networks and I make more money every single year. Amazing (to you), isn't it?

If I had listened to Paul Markham back in 2008-2009 I would have never made millions (YES millions) in earnings and revenue over these past ten years. So thanks for that great advice Paul!

(The only good thing about your predictions Paul is that despite your health challenges you are still around to make them. Other than that, total bollocks.)

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Paul you were saying the same exact shit when I joined GFY ten years ago. THE SAME EXACT SHIT!

And yet here I am, now with over 100 paysites in my various Networks and I make more money every single year. Amazing (to you), isn't it?

If I had listened to Paul Markham back in 2008-2009 I would have never made millions (YES millions) in earnings and revenue over these past ten years. So thanks for that great advice Paul!

(The only good thing about your predictions Paul is that despite your health challenges you are still around to make them. Other than that, total bollocks.)

He doesn't believe you.

He doesn't believe me.

We haven't been able to change his mind in 10 years

I remember when Paul was very classist. If you didn't know someone that Paul knew you were nobody to Paul. He wasn't a dick about it it's just the way he was. Now everybody is nobody to Paul and nobody has successful pay sites, what if they do when they're not making tens of millions a year then they don't matter

[billywatson]

The end of an era.

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Only a fool gives out tips to people wanting to do the same as he does. Do you really expect people to encourage and help the enemy?

But this has always been the best part of our industry.... We are ALL competitors, but yet we work together. Your local plumber doesn't send business to other plumbers, but in our industry a program would send traffic and it's customers to other programs... and make MORE money.

We all share trips and help each other.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Bladewire

He doesn't believe you.

He doesn't believe me.

We haven't been able to change his mind in 10 years

I remember when Paul was very classist. If you didn't know someone that Paul knew you were nobody to Paul. He wasn't a dick about it it's just the way he was. Now everybody is nobody to Paul and nobody has successful pay sites, what if they do when they're not making tens of millions a year then they don't matter

Yes but that's probably due to Paul being British (a notoriously class-obsessed society).

I just like pointing this out to Paul since he obviously has no common sense. For anyone to still BE in business (this crazy business especially) for more than a decade should prove a person's success and sustainability. But not to Paul!

As you say, he doesn't believe me.
He doesn't believe anyone but himself and that's really the issue.
(Glad his health is doing better tho!)

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I'm pretty sure that what Rochard doesn't understand is: there aren't any people there able to give people like me "tips".

Because Robbie knows everything about everything, and doesn't see a need to change or evolve. There is no reason for him to attend a show because.... He knows everything.

I had the same attitude once too. I'll never forget the moment it hit me like a rock. I worked for Dating Factory at the time, and my new boss wanted to go to a dating seminar. I thought to myself "What the fuck for?" because I thought I knew everything. During the question and answer session I noticed everyone in the room was asking questions from the affiliate perspective... Because nearly everyone in the room was an affiliate. Forty-five minutes sitting through a seminar and a half hour of meeting people who attended the seminar paid for my trip multiple times over. I've been in the industry for over twenty years and thought I knew everything, yet here was a huge pool of affiliates that I was overlooking.

No one in the industry should have the attitude that they "know it all".

[Rand]

The end of an era.
But a really good run.

.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Rand

The end of an era.
But a really good run.

.

Well this sums it up pretty well I think.