We are a simulation

[Brujah]

Assuming:

1. It is possible that a civilization could create a computer simulation which contains individuals with artificial intelligence.
2. Such a civilization would likely run many?say billions?of these simulations (just for fun; for research, etc.)
3. A simulated individual inside the simulation wouldn?t necessarily know that it?s inside a simulation?it?s just going about its daily business in what it considers to be the "real world."

Then the ultimate question is?if one accepts that theses 1, 2, and 3 are at least possible? which of the following is more likely?

1. We are the one civilization which develops AI simulations and happens not to be in one itself? Or,
2. We are one of the many (billions) of simulations that has run? (Remember point 3.)

[DarkJedi]

[grumpy]

no more matrix for you

[Brujah]

Similar to the Matrix I suppose but not quite. There's no external brain-flesh thing going on. The idea is that it's possible at some point, even in millions of years, that a civilization will be advanced enough to create a simulation of artificial intelligence so real as it's hard to distinguish between the simulation and reality.

[DrChango]

The idea of artificial intelligence is probably the biggest challenge to Descartes "I doubt therefore I am" position.

[devine]

[TurboAngel]

Originally Posted by Davey Jones

Awwwwwwwwww

[Darkland]

That is word for word Nick Bostrom's theory in his Simulation Hypothesis as well as support from Tipler's Omega Point of which I already commented about its short comings in an earlier thread.

These are most definitely not new ideas.

[porndotnet]

Now place the hash pipe on the coffee table

[Brujah]

Originally Posted by Darkland

That is word for word Nick Bostrom's theory in his Simulation Hypothesis as well as support from Tipler's Omega Point of which I already commented about its short comings in an earlier thread.

These are most definitely not new ideas.

They weren't supposed to be.

[seeandsee]

i totally agree, deya vu are just errors in simulation code.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by seeandsee

i totally agree, deya vu are just errors in simulation code.

Or it could actually be an error in the handling of short term and long term memory processes. For instance, a new memory is being shuttled off to its proper memory bank. If the brain sends something to the long term sector but it was meant for the short term sector then a correction can be made and what your left with is deja vu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deja_vu

"Scientifically speaking, the most likely explanation of déjà vu is not that it is an act of "precognition" or "prophecy," but rather that it is an anomaly of memory giving the impression that an experience is "being recalled."

[Brujah]

Originally Posted by Darkland

Or it could actually be an error in the handling of short term and long term memory processes.

Sure, but go back to Nick Bostrom. Address his concise points first, now that you're interested. Reply to the first post with your thoughts?

[2012]

When you're brainwashed it doesn't matter if you're in a simulation or not. We all live in a manufactured state of consciousness. It's hard to wake up but sometimes it happens. If you could prolong the realization you probably wouldn't be able to function and would sit in a room in the dark on some computer somewhere ...

Crack, it's whats fer dinner.

[biskoppen]

The simulation argument is pretty interesting..
The thing is... that us, saying.. "But, wouldn't it take a unbelievable big computer to run the workd".. Maybe.. but what if the reality in which we're is so different that ours that that world is to us what we are to the game of Super Mario?

Then this world it pretty simple in their eyes.. and very archivable..

No matter if we're simulated or not the world is not what people think... the world is nothing but data in some way or the other.. matter is an illusion created by our senses..

[biskoppen]

Originally Posted by fartfly

When you're brainwashed it doesn't matter if you're in a simulation or not. We all live in a manufactured state of consciousness. It's hard to wake up but sometimes it happens. If you could prolong the realization you probably wouldn't be able to function and would sit in a room in the dark on some computer somewhere ...

Crack, it's whats fer dinner.

The average human being is nothing but caddle...

[seeandsee]

Originally Posted by biskoppen

No matter if we're simulated or not the world is not what people think... the world is nothing but data in some way or the other.. matter is an illusion created by our senses..

But in real simulation someone can control data at some point. Maybe simulator creators made zillion of simulations, who the fuck will know. Just like random(100)

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Sure, but go back to Nick Bostrom. Address his concise points first, now that you're interested. Reply to the first post with your thoughts?

I studied these theories years ago... The whole argument supports itself by being unarguable.

First it says it is "possible" that a civilization could create a computer simulation which contains individuals with artificial intelligence.

He then turns right around and says, "A simulated individual inside the simulation wouldn?t necessarily know that it?s inside a simulation?it?s just going about its daily business in what it considers to be the "real world."

Then on his outline alone you must take on "faith", can we say religion anyone, that the following MUST exist for us to be in a simulation:

That a civilization so advanced to have these abilities would be so far outside our realm of understanding that they would literally be alien to us, not to mention completely unknowable and most certainly untouchable.

It COULD very well be possible or just another attempt by man to rationalize his existence.

I never said the simulation hypothesis wasn't possible by the way, you merely perceived that was my position. I belong to the "Anything Is Possible" camp.

If you're just getting into the study of theoretical science, hit me up, I could recommend some mind blowing reading material.

[Brujah]

Right, you have to make those assumptions first. Just start with #1. Do you think it's possible that a civilization will ever exist, even in a million years, with that kind of artificial intelligence technology? If yes, we can continue to discuss. If no, then it's no use bothering.

[hjnet]

Shut up or I'll rewrite your code to give you a 1" dick, 12 children and a sex hungry 300 lbs wife called "Hedwig"

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Right, you have to make those assumptions first. Just start with #1. Do you think it's possible that a civilization will ever exist, even in a million years, with that kind of artificial intelligence technology? If yes, we can continue to discuss. If no, then it's no use bothering.

Dude... I said it could be possible. Just look at the technology around you. In another decade or less we will have quantum computers that will make the one you're on now look like an adding machine. Add to that the quantum computers ability to bypass the archaic computational standard to one of quantum mechanical phenomena and you have the computer and data ability for simulated reality.

We are already doing it with virtual reality, not to mention complete external stimulus of the cerebral cortex to give vision back to the blind.

So is it possible? I will say it again... Yes, it could be.

[2012]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Right, you have to make those assumptions first. Just start with #1. Do you think it's possible that a civilization will ever exist, even in a million years, with that kind of artificial intelligence technology? If yes, we can continue to discuss. If no, then it's no use bothering.

If we can make it to a level 1 civilization anything's possible.

[Brujah]

Great, then skip to #3

"A simulated individual inside the simulation wouldn’t necessarily know that it’s inside a simulation—it’s just going about its daily business in what it considers to be the "real world.""

Do you agree?

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Great, then skip to #3

"A simulated individual inside the simulation wouldn?t necessarily know that it?s inside a simulation?it?s just going about its daily business in what it considers to be the "real world.""

Do you agree?

Yes and no... Reality is subjective to the observer.

A simulation must have rules, specifically safe guards that would protect the integrity of the experiment or "simulation." What is reality after all, if not a presupposition and adherence to the known laws of current physics. One would assume an advance civilization would account for this and apply some sort of intelligence throttle, therefore avoiding the risk of having it's subjects become "aware" of their existence and the simulation at large. Including the formation of a theory on simulated reality. It is a given that all unstable variablities must be accounted for.

So I largely subscribe to Bostrom's 1st Ultimate Question and that we are:
"the one civilization which develops AI simulations and happens not to be in one itself?"

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by fartfly

If we can make it to a level 1 civilization anything's possible.

Michio Kaku is great... Check out his book "Impossible Physics", he is probably one of my favorite theoretical physicists.

[Brujah]

I don't agree that there is an intelligence throttle or safe guards in place to prevent the simulation from becoming aware or supposing that it might be a simulation. So we choose to pursue these thoughts along different lines from this point.

Even so, I might agree with you that #1 to the Ultimate Question could be correct but I wouldn't rule out #2 either or the idea that we are a simulation within a simulation within a simulation x billions.

Tipler's concepts on God and cosmology were pretty interesting along this train of thought too.

[Janak]

[who]

If we, as humans, ever developed technology to make such realistic simulations, there's not a chance in hell that we'd be allowed to run them.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by who

If we, as humans, ever developed technology to make such realistic simulations, there's not a chance in hell that we'd be allowed to run them.

You are probably right... Those of the Idiocracy Nation would stop it or at the very least try to hinder it. Just like they are doing with the LHC and stem cell research.

[Brujah]

Originally Posted by Darkland

You are probably right... Those of the Idiocracy Nation would stop it or at the very least try to hinder it. Just like they are doing with the LHC and stem cell research.

Why? What if 1,000,000 A.D. it's merely a Sims game? No real danger of something so simplistic to them affecting their external lives. The simulation is artificial intelligence, nothing real. It believes it's real. It believes it feels. It's perception of time could be eternal, but realistically might be minutes or hours.

[John-ACWM]

Originally Posted by Davey Jones

the kittens are behind it all

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Why? What if 1,000,000 A.D. it's merely a Sims game? No real danger of something so simplistic to them affecting their external lives. The simulation is artificial intelligence, nothing real. It believes it's real. It believes it feels. It's perception of time could be eternal, but realistically might be minutes or hours.

This is a pretty old argument and more prevalent as we get closer and closer to creating artificial intelligence. Some already hold to the belief that in doing so we are creating life forcibly rather than naturally. Why do you think cloning is largely frowned upon?

[klinton]

what would be purpose of making this ?

such civilization would have probably better things to do...

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by klinton

what would be purpose of making this ?

such civilization would have probably better things to do...

What was the purpose of creating an atomic bomb? or engineering viruses and diseases? Because they could.

What other reason do they need?

[collegeboobies]

welcome to the matrix, this is old news

[HorseShit]

serius bidness

[loopardo]

and what if we, actually being a simulation, made another simulation?

oh wait! The Thirteenth Floor anyone??

the cat's pic fits perfect here

[RevTKS69]

"In general, quantum systems exist in superpositions of those basis states that most closely correspond to classical descriptions, and from an observer's perspective the state seems to "leap" or "jump" to just one of the basis states and uniquely acquire the value of the property being measured, ei, that is associated with that particular basis state."

This has always struck me as being evidence that we are in a simulation; the fact that any simulation would avoid performing calculations until they actually needed seemed to fit right in with this phenomenon.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by RevTKS69

"In general, quantum systems exist in superpositions of those basis states that most closely correspond to classical descriptions, and from an observer's perspective the state seems to "leap" or "jump" to just one of the basis states and uniquely acquire the value of the property being measured, ei, that is associated with that particular basis state."

This has always struck me as being evidence that we are in a simulation; the fact that any simulation would avoid performing calculations until they actually needed seemed to fit right in with this phenomenon.

What you're talking about is quantum entanglement and the collapse of the wave function. When something alters it's nature by the mere presence of an observer, it is pretty astounding. But that still does not mean it's all an illusion, it merely means we are connected to everything around us in ways we have not yet discovered.

[ExLust]

Originally Posted by Davey Jones

cuteee..

[INever]

It's a holographic simulation.
http://www.amazon.com/Holographic-Un.../dp/0060922583