Why HD should cost MORE then SD (Standard definition video)

[Loch]

It shouldn't, why would it?
Gear cost nothing these days, hell its dropping on a weekly basis still.....
in 04 when a basic sony Z1 was 10K sure ok, but not today....

YET....
I get providers contacting me with something like this.

We are vevy goded at shootings content, here are samplas "link"
Shoots in SD: $350
HD VIDEO: 600

[donkevlar]

It's harder to process, edit and takes up more space?

And you need better lighting and shit too, no?

[collegeboobies]

Agreed, I guess computer processing time may be longer though.

[Loch]

Originally Posted by donkevlar

It's harder to process, edit and takes up more space?

And you need better lighting and shit too, no?

Harder to process no, not if you know what you are doing.
Space? a 1.5 Tera drive is 250 bucks

Lighting and shit: no

[Loch]

Originally Posted by collegeboobies

Agreed, I guess computer processing time may be longer though.

Might be 20-30% more on the encode side depending on the BR and format....still who cares when its exclusive and 1-5 scenes.....means NADA

Besides that should be an extra charge and should not effect the exclusive price,

[MaDalton]

better quality = higher price

why should porn be the only business where this rule does not apply ;)

[woj]

Why would SD be even an option? SD content will be worthless in no time, it's terrible idea to shoot anything in SD now a days....

[Loch]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

better quality = higher price

why should porn be the only business where this rule does not apply ;)

Actually 8 of 10 companies that should HD end up with a way more crap looking video as they dont know how to properly process it, making it look like shit.

Its just a different format, if what you are saying were a reality you should also charge more for giving the client wmv files and not flv as flv tends to look worse.

By shooting HD you are opening yourself up to another market....everything else stays the same

[Loch]

Originally Posted by woj

Why would SD be even an option? SD content will be worthless in no time, it's terrible idea to shoot anything in SD now a days....

We haven't owned an SD cam in 5 years
But yeah i agree

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Loch

Actually 8 of 10 companies that should HD end up with a way more crap looking video as they dont know how to properly process it, making it look like shit.

Its just a different format, if what you are saying were a reality you should also charge more for giving the client wmv files and not flv as flv tends to look worse.

By shooting HD you are opening yourself up to another market....everything else stays the same

well, actually i meant non-exclusive mostly. for exclusive i have been shooting in the past years in SD only for a few clients who insisted on that

but for non-excluisve - in my opinion - my above statement still stands

[Loch]

Does not make sense....sorry but it just does not make sense.

Edit: good on you if you can get more though

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Loch

Harder to process no, not if you know what you are doing.
Space? a 1.5 Tera drive is 250 bucks

Lighting and shit: no

That whole statement other than space being cheap now is wrong.

[Loch]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

That whole statement other than space being cheap now is wrong.

Funny we must have been doing it wrong for 5 years then.
As i said im sure a lot of people still struggle with processing HD....you shouldn't extra charge for not being good at what you do.

Remember we are not talking about BULKS here....
Sure if someone gave you 2000 HD scenes to process "encode" i would charge more but that is not what we are talking about here.

Edit: 99% of programs on the internet still has no clue what to do with video or how to process it.

[donkevlar]

Originally Posted by Loch

Funny we must have been doing it wrong for 5 years then.
As i said im sure a lot of people still struggle with processing HD....you shouldn't extra charge for not being good at what you do.

Remember we are not talking about BULKS here....
Sure if someone gave you 2000 HD scenes to process "encode" i would charge more but that is not what we are talking about here.

Edit: 99% of programs on the internet still has no clue what to do with video or how to process it.

Does HD cost "more" to produce?

Hint: yes.

[Loch]

Originally Posted by donkevlar

Does HD cost "more" to produce?

Hint: yes.

How so, please elaborate on this....

[donkevlar]

Originally Posted by Loch

How so, please elaborate on this....

Well you know how things that are more expensive make you have less money when you buy them?

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Loch

Does not make sense....sorry but it just does not make sense.

Edit: good on you if you can get more though

why does it not make sense?

example:

i sell a WMV video with 704x396 and 1500 kbit/s and the same clip in WMV with 1280x720 at 3000 kbit/s

first of all: the HD version needs twice the storage, but we can agree that storage nowadays is not that crucial anymore - pricewise.

second: the encoding of the HD version takes 2 or 3 times longer and therefore occupies my encoding PC more than the low resolution version. while i can encode 30 clips in 1500 kbit/s per day i can only encode 10 or so of the 3000 kbit/s clips.

and finally: which one of those two would you expect to make more sales when you put it on your website? I think we can agree the HD version does.

so: please explain me why I should sell the HD version for the same money as the lower resolution clip. while you make more money with it?

i think the adult online business is one of the only places where the rules are completely reversed. when i buy a Porsche i expect to pay more than if i would buy a Saturn. but i know i get a better car. same applies to nearly everything else in your life. just in this case as a content producer i am supposed to shut up and deliver everything at the highest possible quality for pennies? No, Sir, I am sorry.

but i completely agree with you regarding exclusive content - once again, I am talking non exclusive only.

[Sly]

I say let the market decide the price. :-)

If one person wants to charge more, that is certainly their choice. Though competition may change the mind shortly after.

[Major (Tom)]

Originally Posted by Loch

It shouldn't, why would it?
Gear cost nothing these days, hell its dropping on a weekly basis still.....
in 04 when a basic sony Z1 was 10K sure ok, but not today....

YET....
I get providers contacting me with something like this.

We are vevy goded at shootings content, here are samplas "link"
Shoots in SD: $350
HD VIDEO: 600

If you give them business you are a fool. I had that happen to me once, and he lost alot of biz.. Live and learn.
Duke

[moeloubani]

Because you can sell it for more? Same reason VHS tapes cost less than DVDs hombre!

[Loch]

Originally Posted by donkevlar

Well you know how things that are more expensive make you have less money when you buy them?

Common man HD cams are nothing to buy, some cheaper then SD!
Even the good HD cams cost nothing today!

[donkevlar]

Originally Posted by Loch

Common man HD cams are nothing to buy, some cheaper then SD!
Even the good HD cams cost nothing today!

I don't produce content I don't know the specifics, I just looked at your post and gave you some possible reasons. I see that something costing more to make is being sold for more. That's my objective look at the situation. You can "come on mann dont be cheap" all you want but it will do you no good.

[Loch]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

why does it not make sense?

example:

i sell a WMV video with 704x396 and 1500 kbit/s and the same clip in WMV with 1280x720 at 3000 kbit/s

first of all: the HD version needs twice the storage, but we can agree that storage nowadays is not that crucial anymore - pricewise.

second: the encoding of the HD version takes 2 or 3 times longer and therefore occupies my encoding PC more than the low resolution version. while i can encode 30 clips in 1500 kbit/s per day i can only encode 10 or so of the 3000 kbit/s clips.

and finally: which one of those two would you expect to make more sales when you put it on your website? I think we can agree the HD version does.

so: please explain me why I should sell the HD version for the same money as the lower resolution clip. while you make more money with it?

i think the adult online business is one of the only places where the rules are completely reversed. when i buy a Porsche i expect to pay more than if i would buy a Saturn. but i know i get a better car. same applies to nearly everything else in your life. just in this case as a content producer i am supposed to shut up and deliver everything at the highest possible quality for pennies? No, Sir, I am sorry.

but i completely agree with you regarding exclusive content - once again, I am talking non exclusive only.

Read my post above, for BULK encode jobs fine...they take longer.
And let me give in here, charge more for non exclusive then, i dont as its so fast to process its not worth even talking about.

If your HD is twice the storage you are doing it wrong, true HD encoded and brilliant looking should not add more then 20% to your volume compared to SD (Raw files yeah ok but then again storage cost nada)

And you dont make more money with HD today common, you DID 3-5 years ago yes....today you just make less and less if all you have is SD

Dont even get me onto why HD 1080 is already a hugely outdated format and tapes as well

[Loch]

Originally Posted by moeloubani

Because you can sell it for more? Same reason VHS tapes cost less than DVDs hombre!

You have got "somewhat" a point here...
SD will be a LOT cheaper soon as in it will be close to worthless, dead format...tube crap
HD will not go up or should not cost more then what SD does now or 6 months ago, it will simply and completely replace SD

Much like what the internet knows as HD now will be obsolete and outdated in less then a year....

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Loch

Read my post above, for BULK encode jobs fine...they take longer.
And let me give in here, charge more for non exclusive then, i dont as its so fast to process its not worth even talking about.

If your HD is twice the storage you are doing it wrong, true HD encoded and brilliant looking should not add more then 20% to your volume compared to SD (Raw files yeah ok but then again storage cost nada)

And you dont make more money with HD today common, you DID 3-5 years ago yes....today you just make less and less if all you have is SD

Dont even get me onto why HD 1080 is already a hugely outdated format and tapes as well

once again, i think you don't get my point. and since you are in the content business too it makes me a little sad. standard resolution video has become so cheap that some content producers sell scenes for 5 bucks. you and I know what it costs to produce content - with the models, makeup, location etc. etc.

the switch to HD was a chance to sell a better product for better prices. but again some people have nothing better to do than to ruin the prices for everyone. just yesterday i saw an offer with HD scenes incl. pics for $16 per scene. what is the purpose of this? i don't get it.

maybe you are in a better position because of partners, clients or existing contracts. maybe you don't care as much as you also resell other peoples content and get 50% - of whatever you sell the content for but without the actual cost of production.

we just sell content we have produced and i know very well what it cost us to shoot it. and i know how often i have to sell it for which price to make profit from it. and therefore i hate to see other content producer / broker giving away content for peanuts as it destroys my business and my income.

basic line: yes, i know HD does not cost me more but it makes my clients more money and therefore i expect them to pay me more.


/end of rant

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Loch

You have got "somewhat" a point here...
SD will be a LOT cheaper soon as in it will be close to worthless, dead format...tube crap
HD will not go up or should not cost more then what SD does now or 6 months ago, it will simply and completely replace SD

Much like what the internet knows as HD now will be obsolete and outdated in less then a year....

as i just saw this: i would say my clients still buy about 80% the lower resolution clips. so it can't be that dead yet.

and i have no idea what you are going to replace HD with, but for anything above 1920x1280 at maybe 8000 kbit/s in h264 you would have to invent new TVs first.

[Loch]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

once again, i think you don't get my point. and since you are in the content business too it makes me a little sad. standard resolution video has become so cheap that some content producers sell scenes for 5 bucks. you and I know what it costs to produce content - with the models, makeup, location etc. etc.

the switch to HD was a chance to sell a better product for better prices. but again some people have nothing better to do than to ruin the prices for everyone. just yesterday i saw an offer with HD scenes incl. pics for $16 per scene. what is the purpose of this? i don't get it.

maybe you are in a better position because of partners, clients or existing contracts. maybe you don't care as much as you also resell other peoples content and get 50% - of whatever you sell the content for but without the actual cost of production.

we just sell content we have produced and i know very well what it cost us to shoot it. and i know how often i have to sell it for which price to make profit from it. and therefore i hate to see other content producer / broker giving away content for peanuts as it destroys my business and my income.

basic line: yes, i know HD does not cost me more but it makes my clients more money and therefore i expect them to pay me more.


/end of rant

Might be a rant but not a bad one at that.
We are kinda getting into non exclusive overall here and yeah it is a more sensitive field and yes ROI can be hard nowadays.
Still that was not really what i started this thread with

As for the 16 buck scenes you have seen here, that is older content

[Loch]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

as i just saw this: i would say my clients still buy about 80% the lower resolution clips. so it can't be that dead yet.

and i have no idea what you are going to replace HD with, but for anything above 1920x1280 at maybe 8000 kbit/s in h264 you would have to invent new TVs first.

The HD you have "or anyone in the internet business" is not shot in 1920x1280 mate
Its HDV which is a bastard format "1080i" shot in 1440 and artificially blown up to 1920x1280 thereby loosing a LOT of quality.

This is where MOST people fail in the "HD" business, then edit and/encode from the 1920 which crap's your quality right off the bat!

"most have no idea that this happens" and THAT my friend is where people fail in HD....

Here is something most people don't realize is actually possible.
In Vegas this year we were streaming HD 1280x720 - BR 3000 on a wireless 750kbs mac laptop....3 second buffer time and NO interrupts after that.

Edit: /rant lol

[DeanCapture]

Let's get back to business basics for a minute. Does an 8x10 cost more then a 5x7? Does an 11x14 cost more then a wallet? Sure they do. Why? Because bigger is better!!

Look at all the websites marketing themselves as having HD movies. Why do they do that? They do it because HD is in demand right now. HD is in demand because the picture is bigger and if processed correctly, clearer and sharper. It takes the same amount of knowledge, skills, lighting and talent to shoot good HD as it does to shoot good SD. But because the HD is a better product that is in demand right now, I don't see a problem with a producer charging more for HD video.

[wargames]

Originally Posted by woj

Why would SD be even an option? SD content will be worthless in no time, it's terrible idea to shoot anything in SD now a days....

Signed

[Loch]

Originally Posted by DeanCapture

Let's get back to business basics for a minute. Does an 8x10 cost more then a 5x7? Does an 11x14 cost more then a wallet? Sure they do. Why? Because bigger is better!!

Look at all the websites marketing themselves as having HD movies. Why do they do that? They do it because HD is in demand right now. HD is in demand because the picture is bigger and if processed correctly, clearer and sharper. It takes the same amount of knowledge, skills, lighting and talent to shoot good HD as it does to shoot good SD. But because the HD is a better product that is in demand right now, I don't see a problem with a producer charging more for HD video.

HD is not a novelty anymore, its more expected then anything.
I think my whole point here is why the hell would anyone even shoot SD anymore? And if so why offer it cheaper (ok lets call SD cheaper then shall we? everyone happy now lol)

Now lets wait a year or so and see some REAL expensive HD Pro hit the streets
Not many doing that yet

[Allhdreview - Jasin]

Edit: 99% of programs on the internet still has no clue what to do with video or how to process it.

Agreed 100%. So sad but true.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Loch

The HD you have "or anyone in the internet business" is not shot in 1920x1280 mate
Its HDV which is a bastard format "1080i" shot in 1440 and artificially blown up to 1920x1280 thereby loosing a LOT of quality.

This is where MOST people fail in the "HD" business, then edit and/encode from the 1920 which crap's your quality right off the bat!

"most have no idea that this happens" and THAT my friend is where people fail in HD....

Here is something most people don't realize is actually possible.
In Vegas this year we were streaming HD 1280x720 - BR 3000 on a wireless 750kbs mac laptop....3 second buffer time and NO interrupts after that.

Edit: /rant lol

i was just mentioning those numbers cause that is what i would see as maximum at the moment when shot in true HD and delivered as IPTV for example. i surely know the differences, thats why i sell my HDV content encoded and resized to 1280x720 and not in 1920x1280.

but your streaming solution sounds cool, a lot of people would be interested in that for sure

[justinsain]

I only have SD but I would like to step up to HD. For me to do that I would need a new camera. A new mac to work on. New software to edit with and a least a few external HDs to get started. That would cost close to $10,000.

With that kind of investment and if the quality of my work improved, why wouldn't I pass that business expense on to my customers.

[Loch]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

i was just mentioning those numbers cause that is what i would see as maximum at the moment when shot in true HD and delivered as IPTV for example. i surely know the differences, thats why i sell my HDV content encoded and resized to 1280x720 and not in 1920x1280.

but your streaming solution sounds cool, a lot of people would be interested in that for sure

Hey send me some clients and ill pay you 250 pr active

[Loch]

Originally Posted by justinsain

I only have SD but I would like to step up to HD. For me to do that I would need a new camera. A new mac to work on. New software to edit with and a least a few external HDs to get started. That would cost close to $10,000.

With that kind of investment and if the quality of my work improved, why wouldn't I pass that business expense on to my customers.

I could get you started for 3-4k easy!

Edit
Ohh and here is something i think you might be misunderstanding!
I am NOT saying don't raise your prices, just that you shouldn't have 1 price for SD and 1 for HD....that makes NO sense at all!

[justinsain]

Originally Posted by Loch

I could get you started for 3-4k easy!

Edit
Ohh and here is something i think you might be misunderstanding!
I am NOT saying don't raise your prices, just that you shouldn't have 1 price for SD and 1 for HD....that makes NO sense at all!

If you start producing HD video and had to raise your price for that video to cover your added expense, how can you charge the same for SD which you can and have been producing at your regular price.

[bronco67]

It's worse if you do 3D animation. Even the small HD res is twice the rendering time, plus the extra horsepower needed for post processing and editing.

It's a headache, and it should cost more.

[Loch]

Originally Posted by justinsain

If you start producing HD video and had to raise your price for that video to cover your added expense, how can you charge the same for SD which you can and have been producing at your regular price.

Why on earth would you shoot both?

Bottom line if you contacted me saying that your exclusive HD cost more then SD i would think you were a complete fail.....

I am about to become a client of yours because you invested in gear fitting what i need, is my business not enough for you, do you want me to pay you more just because you had to upgrade?
Newsflash, even if all you do is shoot SD you have an ongoing equipment cost.

Maybe you were not charging enough to begin with?

Edit: Friday is beer day at the office, im off

[justinsain]

Originally Posted by Loch

Why on earth would you shoot both?

Bottom line if you contacted me saying that your exclusive HD cost more then SD i would think you were a complete fail.....

I am about to become a client of yours because you invested in gear fitting what i need, is my business not enough for you, do you want me to pay you more just because you had to upgrade?
Newsflash, even if all you do is shoot SD you have an ongoing equipment cost.

Maybe you were not charging enough to begin with?

Edit: Friday is beer day at the office, im off

If I had HD I would put the SD in the closet and only use it if it was requested.

Since I've been shooting video since 1984 I have a huge library of tapes shot in VHS, VHS-C and miniDV. So my point was how can I charge the same for four different qualities of video. With HD being the very best it should make it worth the most.

Until HD becomes the standard, it's treated as a premium. Just like anything that has an upgrade you have to pay more for it. Simple as that.

Enjoy beer day

[Loch]

Originally Posted by justinsain

If I had HD I would put the SD in the closet and only use it if it was requested.

Since I've been shooting video since 1984 I have a huge library of tapes shot in VHS, VHS-C and miniDV. So my point was how can I charge the same for four different qualities of video. With HD being the very best it should make it worth the most.

Until HD becomes the standard, it's treated as a premium. Just like anything that has an upgrade you have to pay more for it. Simple as that.

Enjoy beer day

Again i was talking about Exclusive mostly!
Of course you should charge less for your OLD stuff, no matter the format.

Ohh and HD is the standard now, anyone not treating it as such really should look around and have a look at what the competition is doing.
It could be that my prices only attract the premium crowd, but its been about 4 years since i have an SD request.

PS: Indeed i did enjoy the beer, the day after...not so much LOL

[JustDaveXxx]

Wow, interesting thread.

I have never charged more for HDV than i do for SD. There is a difference in production. You need to double up on the lighting when you shoot HDV over SD.

I edit all of my scenes before i turn them in. And the thats where you will see the difference. SD renders out in 2-10 minutes where HDV renders out in 4 hours. The shooter cant really bitch, but the editor really has room to bitch and moan.

I edit my scenes in 15 minutes max, because i shot it and know how it was shot, (right). But to then add 4 hours of render time to that does kinda blow.





At the end of the day, i dont charge more for HDV and i dont see the reason for other producers to charge more.

[Nautilus]

I do not think HD should cost more than SD for exclusive content production.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Loch

It shouldn't, why would it?
Gear cost nothing these days, hell its dropping on a weekly basis still.....
in 04 when a basic sony Z1 was 10K sure ok, but not today....

YET....
I get providers contacting me with something like this.

We are vevy goded at shootings content, here are samplas "link"
Shoots in SD: $350
HD VIDEO: 600

Supply and demand as well. There are less people who can shoot well in HD, so they can charge more.

[Loch]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

That is usually what i do as i hit the delete button

JustDaveXxx: Yeah the render time can suck, then again when its exclusive and you just render overnight who really cares....

But yeah we do have clients that want everything done, 3 different formats 2 sizes etc etc ect and yeah when its HD postprod you NEED to charge extra, but every client understands that

But again as i started saying, why charge more on the production budgets pr scene.

[sinclair]

So by the generally agreed oupon opinion in this thread, that SD and HD should be priced the same, if I were to shoot on film would I have to charge the same as SD and HD?

But then again the generally agreed upon logic in this thread is that SD is outdated and nothing should be shot in anything less than HD so why shoot in film. Fuck me if Hollywood isn't doing it all wrong these days.

Sinclair

[SuzzyQ]

You can always take the HD clip and down convert it to SD. A&E, History Channel, BIO and CIN are doing it right now. What you see on the SD channel is down converted MPEG2 or MPEG4 video from the HD channel.

[JustDaveXxx]

I love the HDV look way better, but i still get more SD orders. I dont argue, i just shoot what is requested of me.

[Jim_Gunn]

SD or HDV makes no difference to me, it's the same rate per scene or project even though I have to use much more light for the HDV scenes and much longer rendering and video encoding times. Most of the expense of my scenes pays for the other elements, female models, male talent, lighting, locations, photography, makeup, costumes, props, agency fees etc, not the high definition format itself.