50 million people who lack health insurance?

[KillerK]

Are there really that many losers who don't/can't pay for healh care?

[BradM]

It has nothing to do with being a loser. Sometimes what happens is someone is on a group plan as part of their job or whatever, and have pre existing conditions that are pretty expensive to cover. They lose their job... move on or what not and try to get coverage. Because it is illegal to withhold pre existing conditions, they have to list all the medications and issues they have.

They either get:
1) A quote back for $900+ a month
2) A denial letter

Either one doesn't work, because most Americans work paycheck to paycheck (and sometimes worse than that) and the cost to insure themselves is way too much.

[mikesinner]

Originally Posted by KillerK

Are there really that many losers who don't/can't pay for healh care?

For the price it costs each month to have health care worth having, yes there are that many that can't afford.

Many of them are also illegal immigrants who shouldn't have anything until their legal status changes but our government seems to want to stay blind to the real problem in this country. They will just keep throwing money at it until we go bankrupt because doing what really needs to be done is to hard and goes against what their weepy Jesus religion says they are supposed to do.

[fallenmuffin]

I don't have health insurance. Planning on getting coverage soon. I never go to the doctor and haven't been to the doctor or hospital in ages. Not really worth the $250/mo payments.

But getting it soon as I'm planning to start going for check-ups and maybe getting on some blood pressure meds.

[baddog]

Insurance is a sucker's bet.

[cess]

I have a pretty good plan for $160 a month. I found out the same plan can be two or three times as much, maybe even more depending on where you live and other things. I can see why so many people don't have it when a decent plan cost $400-600 a month or more in some areas. Now imagine some parent(s) paying that for each person in their family. I know there's family plans but I doubt the discounts are that great.

One of my friends gf recently had cancer. She's fine now but decided it's best to have insurance so she tried to get it but no one will give it to her after she got cancer. I'm sure there's tons of situations like that.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by KillerK

Are there really that many losers who don't/can't pay for healh care?

no there aren't.
but without a fake crisis, we can't get a fake cure that is really another tax

[CDSmith]

Lumping them all in as losers isn't fair nor is it accurate. The ones who CAN afford it but choose not to get coverage and then something bad happens and they get clipped with an $80k-$250K hospital bill are the ones who are truly the losers.

But the ones who simply can't afford premiums or who are outright denied coverage or are deemed inelligible for it? Come on. God forbid your own business or employability takes a tumble and you're left having to cut costs down so low you can't afford your premiums, will you then label yourself a loser?

All I can say is thank Christ this isn't an issue in Canada.

[MK Ultra]

I'm a self-employed 51 year old diabetic with no insurance
it would cost me over $500 per month to get insured
Plus the $1000 deductible
add in the co-pays for doctor visits and prescription meds maybe another $1000
Total cost $8000 per year

I made a deal with my doctor, I go 4 times per year and get a discount for paying cash
They take blood in the office to save me lab fees
I buy generic meds from Walmart or Target
Total spent around $1200 per year

ALL heath insurance is a scam, don't believe what you hear coming out of Washington
They plan on making it law that every American must have insurance, even if you have to buy it yourself.
They better bring the handcuffs when they come to sign me up.

[sextoyking]

We have been with the same hmo for many many years.... About $1400.00 per month for my family.

$10.00 office visits, $10.00 for scrips.....

I feel bad for any person or family - especially with kids that doesn't have medical insurance.

[Dirty Dane]

Only 3rd world countries can't provide health...

[BFT3K]

Health care should be taken out of your paycheck, just like social security.

You can't mandate it like car insurance, because many people simply won't pay for it.

The rates are way too high, and the idea that some people need to pay more than others, and some people are not insurable, is unacceptable.

Just make it a sensible right for US citizens, and take it out of our checks just like S.S. and unemployment.

The only groups who are NOT onboard with that plan are the insurance companies that are fucking us over, the people who are invested in those insurance companies, and the rich that think the poor can go fuck themselves, as long as they are able to afford it it's all good, and universal healthcare must be evil socialism.

[BFT3K]

Health care should be taken out of your paycheck, just like social security.

You can't mandate it like car insurance, because many people simply won't pay for it.

The rates are way too high, and the idea that some people need to pay more than others, and some people are not insurable, is unacceptable.

Just make it a sensible right for US citizens, and take it out of our checks just like S.S. and unemployment.

The only groups who are NOT onboard with that plan are the insurance companies that are fucking us over, the people who are invested in those insurance companies, and the rich that think the poor can go fuck themselves, as long as they are able to afford it it's all good, and universal healthcare must be evil socialism.

[BradM]

Originally Posted by BFT3K

Health care should be taken out of your paycheck, just like social security.

You can't mandate it like car insurance, because many people simply won't pay for it.

The rates are way too high, and the idea that some people need to pay more than others, and some people are not insurable, is unacceptable.

Just make it a sensible right for US citizens, and take it out of our checks just like S.S. and unemployment.

The only groups who are NOT onboard with that plan are the insurance companies that are fucking us over, the people who are invested in those insurance companies, and the rich that think the poor can go fuck themselves, as long as they are able to afford it it's all good, and universal healthcare must be evil socialism.

In California it is. But only Mexicans qualify for the coverage.

[woj]

Originally Posted by sextoyking

We have been with the same hmo for many many years.... About $1400.00 per month for my family.

$10.00 office visits, $10.00 for scrips.....

I feel bad for any person or family - especially with kids that doesn't have medical insurance.

That's insane, how many kids do you have?

[sextoyking]

Originally Posted by woj

That's insane, how many kids do you have?

I have 5 daughters but it's the same price if you have '3' or more kids...

[crockett]

Originally Posted by BradM

It has nothing to do with being a loser. Sometimes what happens is someone is on a group plan as part of their job or whatever, and have pre existing conditions that are pretty expensive to cover. They lose their job... move on or what not and try to get coverage. Because it is illegal to withhold pre existing conditions, they have to list all the medications and issues they have.

They either get:
1) A quote back for $900+ a month
2) A denial letter

Either one doesn't work, because most Americans work paycheck to paycheck (and sometimes worse than that) and the cost to insure themselves is way too much.

Exactly this and not only that, those whom do have health insurance often get denials for their needed treatment despite paying for coverage. This isn't a "loser" issues as it is rather a scam that has taken over the heath care industry.

The health insurance industry is quite simply "broken".. no other words need apply. The drive for profits have put greed above all else.

[dirtysouth]

That estimate includes illegals. IE: It's skewed.

And nationalized healthcare is fail. You want to wait MONTHS for a procedure?

GO USSA!

[BFT3K]

Originally Posted by crockett

Exactly this and not only that, those whom do have health insurance often get denials for their needed treatment despite paying for coverage. This isn't a "loser" issues as it is rather a scam that has taken over the heath care industry.

The health insurance industry is quite simply "broken".. no other words need apply. The drive for profits have put greed above all else.

Exactly!

[kane]

I'm basically doing the same thing that MK Ultra does. I have Asthma and can't get coverage that will cover anything asthma related. The last time I got a regular health insurance quote it was for around $450 a month and would not cover any asthma meds or doctor visits. It was so high because they felt my asthma showed that I was generally "unhealthy." So I go to the doctor 1-2 times a year and pay cash for it I buy my own meds online for about 1/3rd what I would pay in a pharmacy and I have a very cheap insurance policy that basically only covers catastrophic things. So if I ever had a heart attack or got in an accident had brain damage or things like that I would be covered, but if I end up in the hospital fo an asthma attack I have to pay for it.

The funny thing is that this happened to me about 5 years ago. I went to the urgent care center and when it was all said and done the bill was about 4K. I was in there for about two hours. When I called and offered to pay cash they cut the bill down to $2200. So I always make sure I have some in a medical savings account just in case.

I just read that the average cost of medical insurance for a family of 4 is $12,500 a year. Most people get it through their job. At that rate if most people lost their jobs they couldn't afford to pay for it on their own.

[kane]

Originally Posted by dirtysouth

That estimate includes illegals. IE: It's skewed.

And nationalized healthcare is fail. You want to wait MONTHS for a procedure?

GO USSA!

Actually in some cases you already do. A friend of mine has had a hip problem she has been dealing with for months. She went to her regular doctor which took her about 10 days to get in to see as a non-emergency. He needed to send her to someone else. It was a three week wait for that. That guy wanted an MRI. It took three more weeks just to get the approval from insurance and get in for the test (they denied it once and the doctor had to call and tell them why he needed it). After the test two more weeks went by as they waited for the doctor to see the results. Finally the diagnosis was made and they decided to give her a cortisone shot in her hip to see if that would help it heal. It took two more weeks of waiting to get in to see the guy that would give the shot. So when people say that medical care is ultra swift in the US it is kind of a myth. If you just want a check up or have a cold or something like that or you have a life threatening thing you can get in and get taken care of pretty quickly, but if you have anything more than that it could be a while.

Maybe it would get worse under national care, maybe not.

[tony286]

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/files/...CareCrisis.pdf

[Dirty Dane]

Originally Posted by crockett

Exactly this and not only that, those whom do have health insurance often get denials for their needed treatment despite paying for coverage. This isn't a "loser" issues as it is rather a scam that has taken over the heath care industry.

The health insurance industry is quite simply "broken".. no other words need apply. The drive for profits have put greed above all else.

When I watch rich old ladies having a facelift and fix their ugly tits, even for their pets, while kids of poor people can't even fix their teeth, then I ask myself who is the real loser.

Hell, I'm not a socialist, but I like the way it is here in Denmark. We pay high taxes, too much IMO.. but the share for public health care is fine with me. Same with free educations... If the richer has extra money to "skip" the public health care, that is also fine with me. But, like in US, why should companies profit and some individuals suffer? Why should lack of money make people sicker? Is that the definition of a "rich country"? A rich country do not outsource care for their people to insurance companies and greedy medical companies. A rich country take care of all citizens, no matter their economic status. The US can afford it. And it does not even have to be through more taxes, but by not spending so much money on stuff like nuclear weapons that will never be used anyway.

[TheDoc]

My Dad broke his back, no more work.. (had to sue to get covered) SS/Medicare takes care of my Dad now. My Mom, no insurance. Getting a 50+ year old lady insurance, isn't easy and isn't cheap.

Myself - Vet discharged for medical reasons, denied coverage.

My wife, same deal...She has to have a job at a major company, or huge issues with getting insurance. My company straight up can't afford her, each person would become as much as hers.


Most people you see working at low income jobs, many gas stations, lock smith, shops of all types, restaurants, bars, car shops, and so on... Don't have insurance. Many families can only afford one person to work and only one person to get covered... leaving one family member and/or kids without coverage because many companies don't include families.


As an American, legally working in Canada my GF at the time and myself used the Canadian Medical System, which I paid into. Our bill after each event $0, copay $0, pills $0.. ice pack $0. Oh... and I didn't wait.

That's how it should be!

[seeandsee]

wowo 50mil unsecured

[DaddyHalbucks]

The idea that a nanny government needs to take care of the people from cradle to grave violates the founding principles of our country and has directly caused our current economic depression.

[kane]

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

The idea that a nanny government needs to take care of the people from cradle to grave violates the founding principles of our country and has directly caused our current economic depression.

Well, not really. Stupid people buying houses they can't afford. Financial companies inventing new products that produce wealth from thin air. The government failing to regulate those products and pulling back on other regulations and some very bad business ideas helped cause our current economic depression.

There are some that would say our current depression is right in line with what the founding fathers wanted. A lack of regulation left the market free to do as it pleased and then eventually it collapsed (as it always does). That is what a free market is all about, boom for a while, bust for a while.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

The idea that a nanny government needs to take care of the people from cradle to grave violates the founding principles of our country and has directly caused our current economic depression.

People would be taking care of people.... not the Gov.

Pretty lame attempt to twist social medical, which is the gov protecting its people, into the reason or cause of our current economic issues.


Just think.. No EPA, DEA, FTC, FDA, and no social medical for the old, sick, or poor.. That's the American way... Can't make it - well fuck you!

No GOV "taking care of the people"... That wouldn't be an America I would want to live in.

[Dirty Dane]

Originally Posted by dirtysouth

And nationalized healthcare is fail. You want to wait MONTHS for a procedure?

Have you ever been in a combat in war? When everyone start screaming medic, he has to make priorities. They all wear same uniforms. If you want to keep the unit and morality alive, which one should he choose first? The sickest or the richest?

[BFT3K]

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

The idea that a nanny government needs to take care of the people from cradle to grave violates the founding principles of our country and has directly caused our current economic depression.

Maybe if proper regulations were in place, and adhered to, the banking system would not have gone bust. Maybe a "nanny system" should have been there to protect us from irresponsible greed.

Maybe if a "nanny system" was properly watching over the mortgage crisis, things may not have gone so wrong.

Maybe if a "nanny system" was watching as the US automotive industry was fucking up for years, GM wouldn't have had to go bankrupt.

I can go on and on, but now perhaps it is time for a "nanny system" to step in, and stop the health insurance industry from raping us beyond comprehension, before it is also way too late for that as well.

[mikesinner]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

My Dad broke his back, no more work.. (had to sue to get covered) SS/Medicare takes care of my Dad now. My Mom, no insurance. Getting a 50+ year old lady insurance, isn't easy and isn't cheap.

Myself - Vet discharged for medical reasons, denied coverage.

My wife, same deal...She has to have a job at a major company, or huge issues with getting insurance. My company straight up can't afford her, each person would become as much as hers.


Most people you see working at low income jobs, many gas stations, lock smith, shops of all types, restaurants, bars, car shops, and so on... Don't have insurance. Many families can only afford one person to work and only one person to get covered... leaving one family member and/or kids without coverage because many companies don't include families.


As an American, legally working in Canada my GF at the time and myself used the Canadian Medical System, which I paid into. Our bill after each event $0, copay $0, pills $0.. ice pack $0. Oh... and I didn't wait.

That's how it should be!

Moving to Canada as I read this.

[baddog]

Originally Posted by Dirty Dane

When I watch rich old ladies having a facelift and fix their ugly tits, even for their pets, while kids of poor people can't even fix their teeth, then I ask myself who is the real loser.

If I can afford to give my dog a penis enlargement and a gold grill does that mean I have to take care of the kid 10 blocks away that has a cavity?

Originally Posted by kane

Well, not really. Stupid people buying houses they can't afford. Financial companies inventing new products that produce wealth from thin air. The government failing to regulate those products and pulling back on other regulations and some very bad business ideas helped cause our current economic depression.

There are some that would say our current depression is right in line with what the founding fathers wanted. A lack of regulation left the market free to do as it pleased and then eventually it collapsed (as it always does). That is what a free market is all about, boom for a while, bust for a while.

Throwing good money after bad is not the solution.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by baddog

If I can afford to give my dog a penis enlargement and a gold grill does that mean I have to take care of the kid 10 blocks away that has a cavity?

Yeppers... and that's a good thing!

[kane]

Originally Posted by baddog

Throwing good money after bad is not the solution.

I agree. The point of my post is that social programs were not the sole reason for our economic collapse.

[Robbie]

Saw some numbers broken down last night on Lou Dobbs show on CNN

Obama says there are 46 million uninsured Americans.

That number he is using is actually 45.6 million and it comes from a govt. census that asked people if at any time in 2007 were they uninsured.

In other words a person could have been insured 11 months of that year and then moved to another job or opened his own business or became unemployed or whatever and didn't have health insurance for every one of the 365 days that year.

Then 7 million of those people are on medicare, medicaid or some other govt. health program but for whatever reason chose NOT to make use of it. (as in people who don't want or need any help from the govt., I have several older family members who feel that way. They take care of themselves the way people always did)

Another several million of those people are illegal immigrants.

And then another 7 million + people are younger folks who don't want health insurance (for instance I never had any health insurance until I turned 40...and then only got it to "protect" my family...until then I never paid one penny in health insurance and I paid my own way to the doctor...just like most guys in their 20's and 30's do)

Anyway, by the time that they finished crunching numbers...the ACTUAL number of long term uninsured Americans that actually want or need insurance is around 8 million. And that includes bums and homeless people.

So now the few of us that are still left in this economy with enough income to actually pay our taxes are going to foot a ONE TRILLION dollar bill for other people's health care?

Just something to think about. Maybe it's worth it. Or maybe they are setting us all up for yet another big money grab. Knowing human nature...my feeling is this thing is gonna come down on the side of greed. Either way it's lose/lose for the people.

[baddog]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Yeppers... and that's a good thing!

What skewed logic brought you to that conclusion?

[BlackCrayon]

Originally Posted by baddog

Insurance is a sucker's bet.

You don't have insurance? What would you do if needed a procedure that would cost 150k or so?

[baddog]

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

You don't have insurance? What would you do if needed a procedure that would cost 150k or so?

As I do not go to doctors I do not really see how that would be possible, but on the off chance it did, then I guess I would try to knock it down as much as I could, then pay it.

[Darrah]

Originally Posted by KillerK

Are there really that many losers who don't/can't pay for healh care?

Sorry that not everyone is as rich as you. There are people that work harder than you and still can't afford the insurance for them and their families. Hope you never become the same loser you look down at when you lose your job or fall on hard times.

[Darrah]

Originally Posted by baddog

As I do not go to doctors I do not really see how that would be possible, but on the off chance it did, then I guess I would try to knock it down as much as I could, then pay it.

If that day came, your medical condition would drain your savings. Tax payers would then have to pay your bills because you were selfish and refused to get the insurance you could probably afford.

[baddog]

Originally Posted by Darrah

If that day came, your medical condition would drain your savings. Tax payers would then have to pay your bills because you were selfish and refused to get the insurance you could probably afford.

You are validating my point that insurance is a sucker's bet. I don't feel I should be forced to bet against myself.

[Darrah]

Originally Posted by baddog

You are validating my point that insurance is a sucker's bet. I don't feel I should be forced to bet against myself.

Are you married, have children, or extended family? Why burden them with possibly caring for you or having to go without because the money they have has to be spent paying your medical bills if anything ever happened to you? You can purchase very cheap, basic insurance. I've seen in friends and family how one unexpected medical condition drained their live savings.

[baddog]

Originally Posted by Darrah

Are you married, have children, or extended family? Why burden them with possibly caring for you or having to go without because the money they have has to be spent paying your medical bills if anything ever happened to you? You can purchase very cheap, basic insurance. I've seen in friends and family how one unexpected medical condition drained their live savings.

No one is responsible for me but me.

[epitome]

It is not that I cannot afford insurance.

It is that I am not insurable because of my pre-existing condition.

No insurance company will take me because my average medical costs per year are $40 to $60k. Just the hospital bill for my surgery in October was $19.4k. Considering I was admitted every six to eight weeks for the last decade...well, you can do the math.

So that shit just builds up on my credit, hospitals seek judgments and I will end up having to do a medical bankruptcy.

Luckily, that last surgery seems to have been the winner. I am praying my medical costs stay down like they have been so far this year. So far this year I have been able to pay for everything I've needed out of pocket...a little less than $1k a month.

The above is the reason that I demand universal health care. Insurance companies should not be able to exclude the sick in favor of the healthy. That defeats the entire purpose of insurance and risk pools. I would happily pay a higher premium with higher deductibles because I am so sickly...but somebody has to offer to cover me in the first place.

[epitome]

Originally Posted by baddog

No one is responsible for me but me.

Edit: never mind...gotcha...re-read.

[gwidomains]

Originally Posted by baddog

You are validating my point that insurance is a sucker's bet. I don't feel I should be forced to bet against myself.

You know what, I'd be all for that if doctors and hospitals could refuse to treat people like yourself on the basis of pre-signed "don't treat me" waivers. However, it is pretty silly we all have to insure our CARS but not have health insurance.

I'm all for discount prepay care for people under 21 and over 67, mentally ill, possibly pre-natal/birth care and military veterans. Of course, you'd waive your right to sue in all but the very worst cases -- and even then there'd be fixed damages.

The rest I think the real problem is the over-education/government certification monopoly of health care providers in the U.S. in comparison to other countries.

[epitome]

Originally Posted by gwidomains

Of course, you'd waive your right to sue in all but the very worst cases -- and even then there'd be fixed damages.

You hit on something there. Malpractice suits are out of control. They drive far too large of a percentage of health care costs. Malpractice premiums are through the roof and the only way for practices to cover the cost is to raise fees. In Maryland, many doctors have to pay hundreds of thousands per year in malpractice insurance.

I've had numerous incidents where I could have sued a doctor or hospital and probably would have gotten a nice settlement. I have not sued.

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by baddog

No one is responsible for me but me.

That's actually not true. If you get into a motorcycle accident and sustain severe injuries, doctors are required to help you. They don't have a choice in the matter.

Now, let's say you actually do get into a really bad accident. It would be quite easy to rack up a $25k bill before you even gain consciousness again.

Of course, that's not the end of it, because in such a case you'd be likely die within days or even hours if you were removed from the hospital. So, let's add another $25k to make sure you stay alive. That's $50k so far - more than most uninsured people could afford to pay.

Without even going going into the possibility of permanent damage (partial paralysis, brain damage, etc), that leaves the taxpayer with a pretty big amount of money paid that in in most cases isn't going to come back if the patient is uninsured.

The risk in the bet you are taking is more often than not passed on to the taxpayer. And that's why mandatory health insurance is a good thing - it makes sure people cannot choose to get a "free ride" that others end up paying for.

The only "reasonable" alternative entails having people literally die in the streets and on the doorsteps of hospitals because they're uninsured. And that's a situation most people simply do not want.

[AssAssassin]

Complicated.

[gwidomains]

Originally Posted by Libertine

That's actually not true. If you get into a motorcycle accident and sustain severe injuries, doctors are required to help you. They don't have a choice in the matter.

Now, let's say you actually do get into a really bad accident. It would be quite easy to rack up a $25k bill before you even gain consciousness again.

Of course, that's not the end of it, because in such a case you'd be likely die within days or even hours if you were removed from the hospital. So, let's add another $25k to make sure you stay alive. That's $50k so far - more than most uninsured people could afford to pay.

Without even going going into the possibility of permanent damage (partial paralysis, brain damage, etc), that leaves the taxpayer with a pretty big amount of money paid that in in most cases isn't going to come back if the patient is uninsured.

The risk in the bet you are taking is more often than not passed on to the taxpayer. And that's why mandatory health insurance is a good thing - it makes sure people cannot choose to get a "free ride" that others end up paying for.

The only "reasonable" alternative entails having people literally die in the streets and on the doorsteps of hospitals because they're uninsured. And that's a situation most people simply do not want.

Well stated.