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-   -   Bain Capital Under Investigation For Tax Avoidance-Romney Denies Any Benefit (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1080105)

SuckOnThis 09-02-2012 03:30 PM
Bain Capital Under Investigation For Tax Avoidance-Romney Denies Any Benefit
 
The New York Times is reporting that Bain Capital, the private equity firm founded by GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney, is among a number of firms being investigated by New York Attorney General, Eric Schneiderman, for failing to pay taxes.

The New York AG?s Taxpayer Protection Bureau has issued subpoenas to at least twelve financial firms, including Bain, looking into whether the companies converted management fees (taxed as ordinary income) paid by investors into fund investments which are taxed at a dramatically lower rate.

The controversial tax avoidance scheme came to light last month when Bain Capital internal financial information was published online by Gawker.com , however the investigation had reportedly commenced prior to the publication and is not believed to be tied to the document dump.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...s-any-benefit/

L-Pink 09-02-2012 03:35 PM
The tax code is 99% exceptions for various ways of doing business. It needs to be scraped in favor of a very simple system that is not only fair for everyone but can be understood by everyone.

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MaDalton 09-02-2012 03:39 PM
Bain did exactly what Gordon Gekko did in Wall Street - so if you're ok with having him running the country...

L-Pink 09-02-2012 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19159294)
Bain did exactly what Gordon Gekko did in Wall Street - so if you're ok with having him running the country...
I'd vote for Michael Douglas.

.

MaDalton 09-02-2012 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Pink (Post 19159296)
I'd vote for Michael Douglas.

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he's a sex addict - sure you would vote for him :1orglaugh

kane 09-02-2012 04:59 PM
While this smells a little bit like a dirt digging mission, I have to admit that if they find some questionable shit it is going to hurt Romney.

The Democrats are already working hard to paint him as a Vulcan with no feelings who will do anything to make a buck including destroying people's lives. If it turns out that his company did some shady shit to dodge paying some taxes it will play right into their hands.

JFK 09-02-2012 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19159303)
he's a sex addict - sure you would vote for him :1orglaugh
why is he a sex addict , just because he's getting more than you ? :1orglaugh

MaDalton 09-02-2012 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFK (Post 19159402)
why is he a sex addict , just because he's getting more than you ? :1orglaugh
how do you know how much sex i am getting? :upsidedow

but Michael Douglas has been officially in rehab for that, you obviously do not pay attention :winkwink: :1orglaugh

Barry-xlovecam 09-02-2012 05:19 PM
In most cases where there is smoke there is fire ...

I am going to guess that the outcome will show Bain's escapades legal but the ethical questions will stick.

SuckOnThis 09-02-2012 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Pink (Post 19159289)
The tax code is 99% exceptions for various ways of doing business. It needs to be scraped in favor of a very simple system that is not only fair for everyone but can be understood by everyone.

.

Agreed. I think one of the biggest injustices in our tax system is the fact that capital gains is taxed at a much lower rate than labor. They are both considered income, it makes zero sense other than the fact that those who make the laws voted themselves a better tax rate.

keysync 09-02-2012 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuckOnThis (Post 19159490)
Agreed. I think one of the biggest injustices in our tax system is the fact that capital gains is taxed at a much lower rate than labor. They are both considered income, it makes zero sense other than the fact that those who make the laws voted themselves a better tax rate.
Why doesn't that make sense?

If you have a regular 40 hour a week job and you save back some money to invest each week out of your paycheck you have already paid you share of income taxes on that money.

So you buy some stock with that saved money and it doubles.
You think you should pay the same tax rate again on that money?

epitome 09-02-2012 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keysync (Post 19159500)
Why doesn't that make sense?

If you have a regular 40 hour a week job and you save back some money to invest each week out of your paycheck you have already paid you share of income taxes on that money.

So you buy some stock with that saved money and it doubles.
You think you should pay the same tax rate again on that money?
You don't pay it again. You only pay on gains. If it comes from somewhere else it is income. Look up the definition of the word.

kane 09-02-2012 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keysync (Post 19159500)
Why doesn't that make sense?

If you have a regular 40 hour a week job and you save back some money to invest each week out of your paycheck you have already paid you share of income taxes on that money.

So you buy some stock with that saved money and it doubles.
You think you should pay the same tax rate again on that money?
You could argue that the earned income from the investment is new money so why should it be taxed at a different rate than money you earn from a job? Why is one money worth taxing more than another?

keysync 09-02-2012 06:57 PM
That's understandable.
But fuck you already paid you income tax and saved your money.

So you get a chance to invest it, Then luckily make a profit and there's uncle sam holding out his fucking hand again.
That's how I look at it.
I know you only pay on the gains.

L-Pink 09-02-2012 07:03 PM
Re; capital gains ... You are being rewarded for both the risk taken in your investment as well as the fact you hold onto your investment for at least a year.

A risk is not taken in a regular paycheck job. A risk IS taken when you buy stocks or build a business property.

Conversely if you lose money on your investment you don't get to take that loss as a deduction. (except for a max of $3,000 a year)

There are valid reasons for a lower capital gain risk/investment tax rate.
.

kane 09-02-2012 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Pink (Post 19159524)
Re; capital gains ... You are being rewarded for both the risk taken in your investment as well as the fact you hold onto your investment for at least a year.

A risk is not taken in a regular paycheck job. A risk IS taken when you buy stocks or build a business property.

Conversely if you lose money on your investment you don't get to take that loss as a deduction. (except for a max of $3,000 a year)

There are valid reasons for a lower capital gain risk/investment tax rate.
.
If I understand it correctly you get taxed at a normal rate for gambling winnings right? How is that different than gains from the stock market? You took a risk and won.

I understand what you are saying. The government is using this lower tax rate to encourage you to invest by telling you if you win and earn money on that investment you will pay less taxes from it. The problem is that there are some investments that have guaranteed returns and unless you have a lot of money to start with you can't get any kind of significant return. If you have a lot of money you can use these guaranteed returns as a way to easily avoid a lot of taxes.

L-Pink 09-02-2012 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kane (Post 19159539)
If I understand it correctly you get taxed at a normal rate for gambling winnings right? How is that different than gains from the stock market? You took a risk and won.
Gambling winnings are pretty much instant earnings and are thus not eligible for capital gaines. Nor is flipping stocks. There is a reason they are called long term capital gains.

.

L-Pink 09-02-2012 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kane (Post 19159539)
The problem is that there are some investments that have guaranteed returns
Guaranteed, no risk returns?

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Hank_Heartland 09-02-2012 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19159303)
he's a sex addict - sure you would vote for him :1orglaugh
The last sex addict we had in the white house was pretty good...remember...quote "I did not have sex with that woman" unquote:thumbsup:Graucho

2MuchMark 09-02-2012 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuckOnThis (Post 19159285)
The New York Times is reporting that Bain Capital, the private equity firm founded by GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney, is among a number of firms being investigated by New York Attorney General, Eric Schneiderman, for failing to pay taxes.

The New York AG?s Taxpayer Protection Bureau has issued subpoenas to at least twelve financial firms, including Bain, looking into whether the companies converted management fees (taxed as ordinary income) paid by investors into fund investments which are taxed at a dramatically lower rate.

The controversial tax avoidance scheme came to light last month when Bain Capital internal financial information was published online by Gawker.com , however the investigation had reportedly commenced prior to the publication and is not believed to be tied to the document dump.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...s-any-benefit/

And yet about 50% of GFY users will be voting for this scumbag to be the next POTUS. Scary.

kane 09-02-2012 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Pink (Post 19159548)
Guaranteed, no risk returns?

.
Sure CD's and T-bills are guaranteed returns, but the rate of return is very small to make any real money with them you have to have a ton of cash up front, but if you have millions you buy t-bills and make free money.

There is actually a nice little loophole that some of the big investment banks use. They can borrow money directly from the fed at a rate that is lower than the rate of return for t-bills. So they borrow from the treasury, buy t-bills then when the t-bills mature they pay back the fed and presto, instant free money. of course we the average person do't have access to this.

L-Pink 09-02-2012 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ********** (Post 19159552)
And yet about 50% of GFY users will be voting for this scumbag to be the next POTUS. Scary.
Incorrect. What is scary is out of more than three hundred million Americans these two are the best we can do?

.

_Richard_ 09-02-2012 07:36 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1710133.html

"Mitt Romney Started Bain Capital With Money From Families Tied To Death Squads"

L-Pink 09-02-2012 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kane (Post 19159554)
Sure CD's and T-bills are guaranteed returns,
Those are hardly investments. They are where money is parked waiting for an investment, lol. Also if you take your money out of them to soon there is a penalty.

.

kane 09-02-2012 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Pink (Post 19159561)
Those are hardly investments. They are where money is parked waiting for an investment, lol. Also if you take your money out of them to soon there is a penalty.

.
And there are millions made every day with these "hardly investments."

astronaut x 09-02-2012 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kane (Post 19159388)
While this smells a little bit like a dirt digging mission, I have to admit that if they find some questionable shit it is going to hurt Romney.

The Democrats are already working hard to paint him as a Vulcan with no feelings who will do anything to make a buck including destroying people's lives. If it turns out that his company did some shady shit to dodge paying some taxes it will play right into their hands.
Sadly, republicans will still vote for him no matter what.

L-Pink 09-02-2012 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kane (Post 19159565)
And there are millions made every day with these "hardly investments."
Come on Kane you know anything that pays 1% or less isn't an investment. But I get your point.

Also note that with a more positive outlook for business in the US that money instead of just sitting there at 1% would be invested in making our economy grow.

.

kane 09-02-2012 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by astronaut x (Post 19159569)
Sadly, republicans will still vote for him no matter what.
There are some people who will vote for their party person no matter what. In the last election in Alaska Senator Ted Stevens had been convicted of multiple felonies. He still ran in the election and got 45% of the vote. This means that 46% of the voters in Alaska would rather have a convicted felon republican than a democrat. . . that is sad.

I also remember seeing people during the last election in Ohio telling a news reporter that they felt Obama would be a better president than McCain, but that they can't vote for anyone who is pro-choice so they were voting for McCain.

kane 09-02-2012 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Pink (Post 19159579)
Come on Kane you know anything that pays 1% or less isn't an investment. But I get your point.

Also note that with a more positive outlook for business in the US that money instead of just sitting there at 1% would be invested in making our economy grow.

.
I don't for a second disagree that with a better economic outlook that money could be better put to use and it could help the economy grow.

This whole thing was me just wondering why a person who makes most of their income from investments should pay a lot less in taxes (percentage wise) than someone who has a job and while I understand what you were saying about it basically being an incentive by the government to invest I was trying to point out that there are ways to invest where there is very little or no risk, yet you can still take advantage of the lower rates.

Barry-xlovecam 09-02-2012 08:02 PM
Capital Distributions are taxed at the capital gains rate ...


IRS document ...

Ordinary dividends are the most common type of distribution from a corporation. They are paid out of the earnings and profits of the corporation. Ordinary dividends are taxable as ordinary income unless they are qualified dividends. Qualified dividends are ordinary dividends that meet the requirements to be taxed as net capital gains.

Distributions that qualify as a return of capital are not dividends. A return of capital is a return of some or all of your investment in the stock of the company. A return of capital reduces the basis of your stock. For information on Basis of Assets, refer to Topic 703. A distribution generally qualifies as a return of capital if the corporation making the distribution does not have any accumulated or current year earnings and profits. Once the basis of your stock has been reduced to zero, any further non-dividend distribution is capital gain.

Capital gain distributions may be paid by regulated investment companies (mutual funds) and real estate investment trusts (REITs). Capital gain distributions are always reported as long-term capital gains.
Change the laws but consider this; monies that are invested have already been taxed once and invested money is at risk. Dividends are treated as regular income and the money that bought the stock has already been taxed.

Why should it be taxed again?

Bain made questionable investments toward asset sales it is alleged -- that in itself is may have been legal but no real wealth is created by it. Reverse Robin Hood; Rob the working class to feed the rich.

L-Pink 09-02-2012 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kane (Post 19159554)
Sure CD's and T-bills are guaranteed returns, but the rate of return is very small to make any real money with them you have to have a ton of cash up front, but if you have millions you buy t-bills and make free money.

There is actually a nice little loophole that some of the big investment banks use. They can borrow money directly from the fed at a rate that is lower than the rate of return for t-bills. So they borrow from the treasury, buy t-bills then when the t-bills mature they pay back the fed and presto, instant free money. of course we the average person do't have access to this.
Also CD's and T-bills are taxed at your regular rate and are not eligible for capital gain income. :2 cents:

.

kane 09-02-2012 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Pink (Post 19159599)
Also CD's and T-bills are taxed at your regular rate and are not eligible for capital gain income. :2 cents:

.
I didn't realize that. . . that makes more sense.

L-Pink 09-02-2012 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kane (Post 19159601)
I didn't realize that. . . that makes more sense.
The real sad thing is how much seniors living on retirement funds are affected by these artificially low rates. An entire generation was told to SAVE for their future well now you have someone with a million dollars in the bank getting less than a thousand bucks a month to live off of unless the base amount is depleted. Really depressed the economy in Florida as much as the housing market.

.

Hank_Heartland 09-02-2012 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ********** (Post 19159552)
And yet about 50% of GFY users will be voting for this scumbag to be the next POTUS. Scary.
This guy makes Bush seem like a saint...Bush didn't know any better but this guy knows and won't care that he's fucking up the country:Oh crap

kane 09-02-2012 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Pink (Post 19159609)
The real sad thing is how much seniors living on retirement funds are affected by these artificially low rates. An entire generation was told to SAVE for their future well now you have someone with a million dollars in the bank getting less than a thousand bucks a month to live off of unless the base amount is depleted. Really depressed the economy in Florida as much as the housing market.

.
I am seeing that first hand right now. My mom is 72 years old. She has some health issues and recently moved into an assisted living center. My mom basically only has social security as her form of income so after her expenses she only has a couple hundred dollars per month to live on. Luckily, the facility pays for her food and medicine. Her only expenses are clothes, or if she wants to buy something for herself etc.

I have talked to a lot of different people there and many of them have saved and saved and saved and still have shit. One guy was telling me how he saved for 30 years. His plan was to sell his house, put that money in with what he had saved and retire. The housing market bottomed out so he didn't get nearly what he would have liked for his house and his investments lost a huge amount of of their value. So now he has enough to live on, but not enough to live the life he was hoping to live.

epitome 09-02-2012 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Pink (Post 19159524)
Re; capital gains ... You are being rewarded for both the risk taken in your investment as well as the fact you hold onto your investment for at least a year.

A risk is not taken in a regular paycheck job. A risk IS taken when you buy stocks or build a business property.

Conversely if you lose money on your investment you don't get to take that loss as a deduction. (except for a max of $3,000 a year)

There are valid reasons for a lower capital gain risk/investment tax rate.
.
I think the millions who are on unemployment and/or have exhausted their benefits would respectfully disagree with you.

It's also weird how as a nation we value the almighty dollar more than we do our lives and bodies. I would argue that the person who is breaking their back earning money should pay less in taxes then the person transferring money out of their online banking account. The incentive would still be there to earn more so you could invest it. In fact, you could earn it faster by paying less in taxes before you finally make it in life that your passive income supports you.

PornoMonster 09-02-2012 09:02 PM
You can always find some stuff with as big as the Tax Code is. It is like building inspectors, you can have 100 come out to inspect and get 100 different reports. Didn't the guy who helped write most of the tax code, get in trouble for cheating, and he claimed he didn't understand it???

keysync 09-02-2012 09:33 PM
The tax code is used to support certain people and hinder others.
That's bullshit.
We are all in this shit together and we should all have to pay a certain percentage one time on everything we earn
equal for everyone across the board.
I don't know what that percentage should be but having 50% of americans not paying a single thin dime is wrong.

Rochard 09-02-2012 09:52 PM
Well, my first question would be... Is New York Attorney General, Eric Schneiderman a democrat or a republican. If he's a dem, it will look like he's intentionally blasting Bain.

However, there's no doubt in my mind Bain did it's best to avoid paying taxes. Most of us do. I bet you if someone looked over Obama's stuff they'd find questionable issues too.

kane 09-02-2012 10:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochard (Post 19159697)
Well, my first question would be... Is New York Attorney General, Eric Schneiderman a democrat or a republican. If he's a dem, it will look like he's intentionally blasting Bain.

However, there's no doubt in my mind Bain did it's best to avoid paying taxes. Most of us do. I bet you if someone looked over Obama's stuff they'd find questionable issues too.
Yes, he is a democrat. One piece I read about him said that there are thoughts that he is trying to do like Spitzer did and go after some big businesses as a way to get his name out there so he can run for governor.

As for Obama cutting corners. . . I don't know. He doesn't own any businesses. Most of the money he has earned so far has come from salaries for his elected positions and sales of his books. He has also released 10 years worth of tax returns so I'm sure if there was something questionable it would have been brought to light already especially considering how much pressure he has been hitting Romney with over his tax returns.

I don't know that Bain has done anything illegal, but I have a feeling they will find some grey area stuff or stuff that can be explained as being "reasonable errors."

If there is bad stuff, then the big question will be if this stuff occurred while he was there or after he left.

Half man, Half Amazing 09-02-2012 10:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kane (Post 19159388)
The Democrats are already working hard to paint him as a Vulcan with no feelings who will do anything to make a buck including destroying people's lives.
Riiiiight...it's the democrats making him look that way.

Perhaps a more accurate description would be "Romney is a Vulcan with no feelings who will do anything to make a buck including destroying people's lives and the Republicans are trying to paint him as something else."

kane 09-02-2012 10:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half man, Half Amazing (Post 19159752)
Riiiiight...it's the democrats making him look that way.

Perhaps a more accurate description would be "Romney is a Vulcan with no feelings who will do anything to make a buck including destroying people's lives and the Republicans are trying to paint him as something else."
You have a point. Even a republican strategist kind of admitted it when he told CNN that Ann Romney's job during the republican convention was to "humanize" Mitt.

Paul Markham 09-03-2012 12:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam (Post 19159420)
In most cases where there is smoke there is fire ...

I am going to guess that the outcome will show Bain's escapades legal but the ethical questions will stick.
It will be another reason NOT to vote for Romney. Now who can figure out why the Republicans keep voting for no hopers in the Presidential race?

Other than Bush getting elected. :Oh crap

KillerK 09-03-2012 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 19159814)
It will be another reason NOT to vote for Romney. Now who can figure out why the Republicans keep voting for no hopers in the Presidential race?

Other than Bush getting elected. :Oh crap
If Paul wants Obama, that should tell everyone on GFY to vote for Romney.

Mutt 09-03-2012 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochard (Post 19159697)
I bet you if someone looked over Obama's stuff they'd find questionable issues too.
nah, i looked at the Obamas tax returns and they are clean as a whistle. take away the book income and the Obamas are a pretty simple upper middle class family.

i remember i was impressed that they gave as much to charity as they did.

martinsc 09-03-2012 01:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Pink (Post 19159296)
I'd vote for Michael Douglas.

.
:1orglaugh:1orglaugh


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