Verified by Visa ?
 

Whats the story with this ?

I checked Visa's site and can see its merit, its also turned up in the iBill CMI as an option.

Anyone experienced it in action?
Does it eliminate chargebacks etc ?

I guess it will take a while to take off though :(

Ian

Where do you find this in the CMI? I can't see anything regarding this

Its in the Customer Service section, the 4th option down.

Its on the sign in page now:

iBill News
Last Updated: Thursday 29 May 2003 at 1:35 PM U.S. Eastern Time

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Verified by VISA Program


Soon iBill will offer the opportunity for its clients to participate in the Verified by VISA program. This new feature allows consumers to create a unique password that will be required at the point of purchase. When the end user attempts to make an Internet purchase, special software installed on the signup page will recognize VISA cards that have been registered. The consumer will then be prompted to key their unique password before a purchase can be approved. The entire process is web-based, so there is no need for consumers to install software.

Merchants who choose to participate in the program will receive added fraud and chargeback protection at no cost. Please visit VERIFIED BY VISA for more information on how the program works and the value-added benefits to merchants.

it should pretty much stop chargebacks unless you promise the surfer something and don't give it.

they won't be able to say, i didn't sign up for that?

:1orglaugh Yeah right.


Just one more field for the carders to harvest.

Whats the difference between this and CVV2?

Regarding the difference between CVV2 and Verified by VISA:

CVV2 is a system that ensures the purchaser has physical possession of the credit card by virtue of the imprinted code unique to that card.

Verified by VISA is a system whereby the consumer can log into VISA's website and register their card and obtain a PIN of their choosing. If a merchant participates in VBV, this PIN will be required to complete the purchase. It essentially eliminates the possibility of charges to a stolen credit card or other unauthorized use. For more information on Verified by VISA, visit:

http://www.usa.visa.com/business/mer...h2_/index.html

? Except it will not help those of us doing recurring billing. This means we have no protection under the Verified by Visa program, including the original sale, if the card number is to convert or has the possibility of being a recurring transaction. That?s pretty much all of the adult industry, which is pretty much our entire business.

The rules were changed to exclude us the other day and we just got the new rule yesterday as we were completing the 3rd certification in preparation for turning the service on to gain the protections advertised.

Oh well, screwed again.

We are in the process of starting a lobbying effort to have this rule revisited.

This is very interesting Chris. I guess VISA earns too much money with chargebacks in the adult industry to put the effective solution into place.

the sky is falling ?
should I go into diplomacy ?
hopefully not, since this thread got only a few replies so far...

I don't have a clue. They say they want to stop "friendly fraud" but then they take away the one tool that will stop it in the biggest problem area of the card-not-present world.

verified by visa pretty much asks for information like your social security number, date of birth, and i forgot what else, i didnt see anythign about a password, you can check it out on ubid.com

and i dont see how this will stop or prevent chargebacks, last time i checked most idiots who give out there information usally gives out that information right with everything else...

so ow exactly will this help, same as the cvv cvc and the million other names for it, it will do little or nothing to help.

and i can say this because i worked in washington mutuals fruad department for a year and a half.

so the scammers scam people out of the cvv, they can scam them for there social, dob, and mothers maiden name... i dont know how many cases ive dealt with with that being the issues.. especially those that have aol as a csp

markell,

What vbv does is allows the cardholder to create a password/pin number with their BANK. It has nothing to do with that other information since your bank already has that. They would have no need to ask you again.

The way the banks have been marketing this so far totally fails to mention anywhere noticeable that the consumer is losing their right to charge back.

Perhaps that's the reason for the reversal Chris... I think I suggested here a month or so ago that vbv the way its being presented might make it 6 months, because at that point, what bank isn't going to have a line of unhappy customers who can know longer scam things for free.

i don't see how anything will stop it... maybe an automated calling system that will call them and make them say their name on the phone or something.. if no one picks up mark that card as high risk and watch it.. but if they accept the call and agree to it physically.. they shouldn't be able to charge back

I've kinda been waiting for this. Look at the email scams for Paypal and C2it going around. "We need to confirm your membership, please enter your credit card and social security number on the attached form" kind of thing.

Here is Visa's dilemma. What if YOU found $1000 worth of fraudulent charges on your credit card today, and when you phoned the bank up they said, "Sorry, PIN number was used, too bad.". The first thing you're going to do is not pay the bill, the second, tell them to shove it.

Imagine an email virus that compromised 20,000 cards and their VBV passwords (because we all know customers do silly things). No bank or system can absorb that or pin it on the customer. The result is that once again the merchant gets it in the neck.

The promise of VBV was that the merchant never collects the PIN, it goes via a 3rd party (Visa controlled). This eliminates database leak problems like what happened with CVV. Trouble is it just makes those PIN numbers more valuable on the black market. I've seen them going for $15 a pop already. It's a mess.

In addition to that, if you have a dishonest merchant, they can pop up their own VBV PIN entry screen. How many customers would know the difference. Sure there's a test question/phrase so you know it's the bank, but if I put up a page with a pretty bank logo asking for a PIN I can either bank on most people forgetting to look for it, or post a little message saying that feature is unavailable and to continue anyway. That merchant can then run the card as many times as they like with chargeback protection if they're clever about how they do it.

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Here's the way it's going to go. Either:
a) High risk will only be allowed to process via a licensed Visa gateway where they control the order pages and customer service. Merchant's will pay silly money for this or course and it will be insanely regulated.

b) Someone has to come up with a hardware style authentication system which has one time disposable ids. This is a long way off and would be expensive/nasty for the consumer.

c) Visa will stick their head in the sand, destroy high risk processing with fines and sly moves and the problem will starve itself away.

I'm betting on the last one.

ps. Kimmy. Many banks in their popup window allow instant enrollment. All you need is some personal info. like mothers name/social etc. Just gets better for the hackers, doesn't it?

Robert

vbv is designed to be communicated between the card holder and the card issuer entirely. It's not on the back of the card like cvv2 is, so it can't be used with a card that doesn't belong to the person that created the password. Unless the idiot gives the password to someone else.

Issuing and acquiring at Visa are not neccessarily on the same side of a situation either... remember that issuing wants to push as many cards as they can out the door, then acquiring has to figure out when they are being used fraudulently...

LOL a fool and his money are soon parted. The banks' marketing tactics for vbv are a page from adult's book and not a pretty one.

You have to dig like a mofo at B of A to find out you are removing your ability to charge back online purchases...

Could be nice.

That's totally fucked...

iBill again?

Me too.

I'm sorry Chris. Nothing personal. I just have a fundamental disagreement here.

It's pretty obvious to me why Visa wouldn't allow VBV chargeback protection on rebills. It's obviously a big part of the overall chargeback/refund problem which, in turn, is causing problems with the credit card associations.

They're protecting the consumer. The adult industry, unfortunately, is not and never has.

Why cling to rebills? I realize that rebills are a substantial part of many sites' revenues, but isn't it better to lose that than lose credit card processing all together? Then you're left with ZERO revenue.

Funny how everybody clings to rebills and other questionable billing practices in the face of pending disaster, rather than fixing the problems or embracing new products which could help avert the crisis.

And people can yell "Fuck Visa!" all they want, but you don't fuck Visa. They fuck you.

And I'm willing to bet that's exactly what's going to happen in the end because this industry absolutely refuses to clean up its billing practices.

P.S. I am not a Visa "spy" either. As if Visa or Mastercard gives a fuck about any of us ... LOL.

there's a huge flaw in your "fundamental disagreement", nevermind.

porn sites are not the only things that rebill.
gym memberships rebill.
ISP charges rebill.
magazine subscriptions rebill.
web hosting fees rebill.
cd/book club/mainstream website memberships rebill.

so it's not only porn sites and IPSPs affected by this decision. many big name, "legitimate" businesses use this "questionable" billing practice. most, if not all, have their own merchant accounts, and none are considered high risk merchants.

this decision will also affect people who pay their bills thru pre-authorized payment on their credit card. my cable/phone/cell/electricity/gas/etc company will not be able to automatically bill my credit card each month.

this decision does not only affect porn sites or IPSPs.
and rebilling is not a problem at all for visa. friendly fraud is. deceptive billing practices are. sketchy merchants are. and these problems apply to mainstream, adult, online and brick+mortar companies.

here's a dollar. buy a clue. then come back here and pretend you know two shits about Visa, credit cards, and IPSPs.

Sure, a few "legit" businesses rebill. But not all of them. And I don't see the credit card associations threatening to cut them off.

The gym I use doesn't rebill. I know of another gym in my area that did, but they were sued for it and had to pay damages.

The magazines I subscribe to (five of them) don't rebill. I've only had one magazine rebill in the past, which I don't subscribe to anymore.

Most of the rebills I do have were done at my request. Like my satellite tv bill. That's because I wanted it. It was my choice. Big difference.

And I am notified every month about all of my "legit" rebills, including my ISP, either by regular mail or email. So I am reminded of the bill in addition to seeing it on my credit card statement.

Does the adult industry do this? No. Because they want you to forget about the charge and keep billing you for as long as possible.

I know a ton of webmasters who have had to issue refunds or incur chargebacks because the customer forgot to cancel and wanted their money back. I bet you do too.

Even if you don't believe that rebills result in higher chargebacks and refunds, pissing off the credit card associations ...

What's the problem with NOT having rebills if it virtually eliminates all chargebacks i.e. the Verified by Visa product?

If the product is good, people will come back and you won't need to rebill them.

Why is the adult industry afraid of giving up rebills if it will potentially solve the current crisis?

Because they want that short term money, regardless of the consequences.

once again, you've gone and shown that you know sweet fuck all about what you're talking about

personally, i love charges that rebill. very, very convienient for me. and if i forget to cancel them, that's my fault and no one else's.

as for notification of rebills, some processors do it (globill for example) and i'm sure others have it as an option.

as for rebills makin for higher chargebacks/refunds, they really don't. i'm assuming you don't know that i work customer service for visa. when a customer wants to dispute a charge, they call me or my co-workers. and if someone calls me or my co-workers and asks to do a dispute on a recurring/pre-authorized charge (adult or non-adult), this is what we tell them.

"by giving your card number and expiry date to the merchant, you entered into a contract with them. one of the conditions of the contract is that they will bill you monthly unless you cancel. if you have cancelled and they keep billing you, please provide us of proof of cancellation. if not, you must cancel with them, preferably by registered mail. keep a copy of your letter as well as the receipt proving it was sent via registered mail and if they continue to charge after that, send us a copy and will initiate a chargeback for you. you must be able to provide us with proof of cancellation or else we'll allow the merchant to continue to bill you, even if you close your account."

wanna hear it again in french?

She also failed to note the beginning of Chris' sentence...

"This means we have no protection under the Verified by Visa program, including the original sale, if the card number is to convert or has the possibility of being a recurring transaction."
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...the operative words being... "including the original sale"...

I don't much think that anyone expected we'd be able to stop cb's on recurring with VBV but frankly there should be no chargeback allowable on the original sale. Which would cut out a tremendous portion of chargebacks made through friendly fraud.

Interesting, I wonder what satellite company you use. DirectTV auto charges my cc, when I go to my online login the balance is always 0, the charge always comes through, and they never send me bills in the mail.

AOL charges me each month, they don't send me a bill or a statement and yet that money is gone.

If you set up on EPayments with B of A, they pay the bills for you, you don't see them unless you log in and check them, but the money is removed from your account when the bills come in.

I must live in a different country than nevermind ;)

Different world would probably be more appropriate :)

I was just about to post the same thing, then I remembered that I was not going to answer "nevermind" until she come out of the shadows.

Recurring billing is not the problem. The buyer's remorse is the problem, which is the ONLY chargeback reason codes that VbV offers protection on, for the merchant.

Nothing personal but you views are so biased against the Adult Industry. This industry is not the only one that uses the recurring billing model. My local Gym uses it, Netflix uses it, Inktome uses it, the cable companies use it the list goes on and on and if you have ever joined a gym forgotten to cancel and then 9 month later tried to get you money back, good luck. Yet we are the only ones to be penalized because this is adult entertainment, we are treated differently and have more severe penalties.

I agree in the past there have been a lot of dubious scams and websites run by some very dishonest people and to some extent that is still going on. But this is not the only industry that has its bad apples and if Visa, Mastercard or any of the big card companies are going to make rules and regulations that are in my opinion restrictive they should first look at other areas and their charge back ratios and fraudulent transaction, i personally know of a company outside the adult business with an average of 6% charge backs and they have no problems no massive fines its business as usual.Just my :2 cents:

Look: Regardless of the rebill debate, which we can all argue about until we're blue in the face:

Must VBV be rejected soley because it doesn't offer CB protection on the rebill option? Which is what Chris implied?

Why not just offer it as another option -- without rebills --- like IBill is doing? What's wrong with that?


Psyko: If you're saying that webmasters have never had to issue chargebacks and/or refunds because customers forgot to cancel, well ... that's nuts. I know a ton of webmasters who have experienced this problem. If Globill issues notices, then great. I've never seen the big three (Ibill, CCBill, Epoch) do it when I've joined sites with those processors.

Kimmy: My satellite tv is with Dish. The credit card rebill is optional with them and I still get monthly notices in the mail. My ISP is Earthlink and I get still get monthly email billing notices from them. Dish and Earthlink are in the U.S., last time I checked.

Cindy: Yes, I do have a bias. It's called honesty.