What is wrong with people?(Shaving)
 

So, I got an instant message from my recent post about hosting for my partner webmasters. The guy just wanted to talk, since he ran a free host in the past. Anyhow, he got to asking me who I use for a processor... I said CCBill.

Here is the conversation...

((Moved to separate page... too long to start the topic with!))
http://www.blood-dolls.com/misc/shaving.html

So... Basically I am blown away. I know there are unethical people in this industry, but to run into someone so blatant.. It took the wind out of me. I can't believe this guy thinks he can be ethical and still do things like this. Am I totally naive compared to the rest of the people in this industry, or is this guy a scumbag like I think?

Now that I have told him off, he is trying to get my business setting up a free host for me! :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :321GFY

Where is the "Coles Notes on Your Post" Image when you need it

Ya, I can dig it. It's the hidden truth of this industry, shaving. I think it's pretty scummy as well. And from what I've heard, it's not even necessary if you've got your shit together.

It's all about aggregrates - if your average member is worth X$, including all of his recurring+your exit sales, then you can afford to pay the non-cheating webmasters $X-n, where n is your profit per member.

Pretty simple really. People/programs who shave because they can't do this simple math are quite simply crooks who are defrauding their webmasters.

Cheers,
Backov

Yeah, I know... miles long... I didn't want to get accused of quoting him out of context...

Cliff Notes:

He asks if my partner program offers shaving. He then goes on to explain how great shaving is, and how it is the only way to make money with per signup. He says that he just gets rid of the sales that don't covert, and doesn't see that as unethical.

He also says that my host must be unethical for charging more than he does. I mentioned that I am impressed by their service, and don't intend to switch even though I know I could get cheap hosting elsewhere. I further explain that it isn't unethical to charge more-- the thing he is describing is unethical because of promising one thing and doing another.

He thinks I am naive. He thinks he has integrity, and is ethical. He basically says it is okay to cheat because it is the only way to make money, and everyone does it.

Ah - you weren't around then when somebody was trying to sell a script to handle tracking to mutiple processors and left the little box with the shave % in then?

Nope. I missed that little gem.

I was half expecting him to offer to sell me a script... Apparently, he was just offering a newbie some helpful advice. Saw it as educating me in the ways of the business. He was quite upset that I thought he was a scumbag...

Interesting stuff... I didn't read the whole thing yet, but it looks like there are always people who think its the way to do business, as well as people like me who are incedulous about it. Glad to see I'm not in the minority.

Shave? No way, he must be Russian! :)

Here's the thing... This guy found me because of my post on GFY. Maybe he can come in here and defend his actions. I think we'd all like to see how ethical a person he is to do business with. You out there, pal?

I think you should tell us who he is so we can avoid his host :)

He didn't say. All I have is his AIM address, and I won't be making that public. He has a right to privacy. I only posted his conversation with the names changed. Its up to him to decide who he wants to know about his interesting ethical positions.

Yeh... I bet he'll just jump right out and tell us he's slime. Thanks for the warning!

This guy was confident that he was being ethical. He should have no problem standing up and explaining himself. If he doesn't, maybe he has started to realize that what I was saying is true.

I'm not defending his viewpoint as such but am curious how people think that every Tom, Dick and his dog can afford to pay $35+ per signup. People sort of bring it on themselves by shunning other stuff for the magic $35+. At the end of the day though it will always come down to does sponsor A make me more each month than B. The pay cheque is far more important than how they credit signups.

Wonder if the script tracking bandwidth on the host shaves too

You really should let us know. We don't want people like him in this business, he is going to find more and more newbie webmaster to currupt, and this is going to be bad for the industry as a whole.

Purely fictional, but lets assume that the following sponsors ALL shave.

1. ARS
2. CE
3. MaxCash

You send your traffic to each of the above for 2 weeks at a time. The most important thing to you should be how much money you made during those 2 weeks.

Lets note that I don't agree with shaving at all. I think it happens with every sponsor. Some intentionally, and some unintentionally by traffic leaks, improper tracking, 3rd party billing company issues, etc.

In some cases it might just be number manipulation. They know that paying per-signup, partnership/recurring, per-click, needs to work out so they are making a decent profit and costing them about the same while catering to your preferences.

Maybe you would normally send 100 signups and get paid $25 per signup ($2500). So they manipulate it to proudly claim they are paying $50 per signup, while shaving 50 but still paying you $2500. Maybe you're making more money with them, than other sponsors you've tried and the sole reason you tried them in the first place was that $50 per signup. You might have never bothered with them at all because they were only paying $25 per signup.

However, most of your webmasters are really only going to care about who is making them the most money. If I'm making more money with sponsor #1 and they're shaving more than anyone else.. I'm still going to keep using them.

Umm, crediting sign-ups is directly related to my monthly pay checks. Are we in different industries here? The best converting sponsor, I send more traffic to (assuming it's the same pay-out).

I understand what you're saying, but comparing a shaver to a non-shaver seems weird to me.

I guess I was optimistic about the people who make $35 per signup...

After all, I am making (this is a guess) more than $30 on the average person who signs up for my site. Re-bills, the occasional really big membership, gifts to my girlfriend (the star) and referral to other sites.

I assumed that a big player could easily be making more than $35 per person. After all, their sites should convert better, the traffic is filtered through partners who want to make a sale, and they have, you know, professional designers, marketers, etc.

Maybe they can't make money that way, and it is all a scam. Personally, I know I won't attract everyone with 50% of sales on a third party system.. but at least everyone knows its an honest program. I'd be more scared of "$45 a signup" or whatever. But I guess even professionals are tempted by the promise of easy money.

You know what's funny about that? This is why we have a partnership program....so webmasters that send good traffic, get rewarded and those who send shit traffic, don't.....but webmasters don't want partnership programs...most have no clue so go for the big one time payout....

I love that I don't have to worry about russians fuckers carding me...


but, let me ask this...webmasters, would you send to a per signup sponsor that had no trials? We're toying with no trials on a couple sites and might even be willing to pay per signup....nah, you're too busy being distracted by shiny objects and the lure of big cash on a free or $2-3 signup...

I love how some webmasters want it all....free trials, with a high per signup payout plus exits, plus dialers, plus check signups, etc. A large enough site can aggragate enough to pay $35 on a free trial signup, but they have to make it somewhere...it's either going to be shaving, crossbilling, massive consoles, not paying on dialers, not paying on checks or from somewhere....A lot of the larger sponsors also have their own little building crews sending themselves traffic....

but, gothweb, if you want to see blatant dishonesty, try offering a per signup program or a per click program ;))) You'll see so much webmaster fraud that you'll be screaming "where's my razor?"....heheheh ;)

the dishonesty can run both ways in this businesss...sad, but true....

Maybe this explains why I got my first few TopBucks signups a few weeks AFTER I quit sending them my traffic... ya think?

Sykko... I know what you mean. My policy is to be honest, and hope it spreads a little. If I catch people being dishonest, I am happy to fuck them over, but I will be straightforward and honest about the way I do it. :thumbsup

DarkDollars is looking great, by the way. Great to see a nice big player in promoting sites in my favourite niche.

Thanks for the heads up.... but if we don't know who it is, it really does not help.

:)

So true

Gothweb thank you for exposing people like that and showing integrity. It's something that people remember for a long time and I know i will if i ever happen to do business with you.

I didn't think to ask who he was before I let him how how unimpressed I was. :( Sorry...

Also, while I hope it ends up serving as a warning, I mostly posted to reassure myself. I was so gutted by how scummy a guy he was, and how he rationalized it, that I needed to see other webmasters agree that he was a scumbag. Otherwise, it would have eroded a lot of my faith in this industry.

Not at all and I don't give a shit about signups. I care about how big the cheque is. If one sponsor wants to pay me (obviously VERY bullshit number just to make the point) $500 per signup and I only make one signup with him (and he's obviously shaving tp pay that amount) and the other credits me with every sale making 10 sales at $35 I may not like the way sponsor a) does business but he's making me more money so I'll probably use him. This is espicially true as it's very difficult to prove that any sponsor is actually shaving or not,

I'm not in this to get excited about number of signups per day. Were that the case all my traffic would go to a free mail/mag program and I could have an orgasm over the numbers every hour. What matters to me is how big that cheque is when it lands on the doormat.

Dont sit here and post how honest and full of integrity you are unless you can go the distance and finish what you started and name the person who did this.

heres my 2 cents for what it worth. i'm a newbie in the adult biz, but not in business. If someone is paying a large payout per sign-up, clik, whatever, they have to be averaging out somewhere in order to retain a respectable profit margin. you fill in the rest.:2 cents:

I have just realized that I *do* know what host this guy works for. It was in his AIM name, just didn't sink in at first. However, I will not be sharing his name or his comany here. He spoke to me in private, and I couldn't betray his privacy like that. After all, this is all about ethics, and I have some.

I will say it is a big host, from what I have heard. This should serve as a reminder to make sure you know the ethics of the people you are working with. Otherwise, you might get screwed. Because there are people with no integirty, who think they are ethical, all over the place.

Luckily, not as many as I thought... I still haven't seen anyone side with this guy in here, really.

For the record I think the whole shaving issue is bullshit in that it should never be an issue. If I knew for sure a sponsor was shaving I would go elsewhere but my priority remains to live the lifestyle I do (or better even :) ) so the cheque is the most important thing.

I dislike dishonesty and try to not be a part of it but also have to unfortunately live in the real world.

Another point worth making is that there's a shit load of shaving that happens simply because of crap tracking. A very good example of that is Clickcash. But then if it's making them more dollars why fix it?

Well shit, if you're not gonna tell us who it is, at least give us a clue - what's the first letter of his name / company? :Graucho

We're all about honesty too, but webmasters don't want honesty....and I realize that most webmasters don't ant to send their hardearned traffic to just any partnership program, since everyone with 500 pics and a hosting account has a revshare program....

and we're not really a player, yet ;)
we're going to get much more aggressive the next few months though, so watch out....yes, even rolling out a pay per signup option (but I don't think we'll open that to the general webmaster public, rather a by invitation type deal)

as for my own personal views on shaving, I'm with a majority, I only care about the size of the check...best way to guage is to count your outgoing 24 uniques and see how much the check is at the end of the pay period......don't pay so much attention to the per signup amount or sponsor page counts...but even when counting your own outgoing, etc. remember that sponsors do run hot and cold and if all your traffic is from the exact same source, you could be running into oversaturation problems...too many times I see newbies crying about shaving when it's more their lack of selling ability...and in some cases even that nasty problem of oversaturation.......

For the last time, I will not be exposing this guy. As I have said, I feel it would be unethical, and unfair to him. I can't just record my conversation with someone, keep his name on it, and post it for the world to see.

I would also like to make a bit of a revision... This guy is not as bad as I thought. We have been talking a bit more. In essence, he primarily just wanted to educate me on a way to make more money. He does not do it himself, and was put out of business at his last gig by someone who shaved.

However, he does think some shaving is a good business practice. He also thinks that the profits everyone gets out-weighs the dishonestly. I still disagree with him. I am very much worried, because this kind of position is the most insidious kind of bad morals. He basically thinks he can judge for himself whether screwing someone is better for them or not, encouraged along by it being better for him.

So, this guy is not a total scuzzbag. I doubt he will rip you off if you work with his host. However, he does have serious moral issues. I study Philosophy by the way, so Ethics is something I have taken courses in... the logic of Ethics, that is. This does not make me an expert, but at least I have experience. More importantly, though, I try to be a decent guy... that counts a lot more for some class!

In the end, I think morals are a deeply personal. This guy needs to work his out on his own. However, I hope our reaction to his position will help him realize that you need to put doing the right thing ahead of making a little more money.

Does anyone here disagree with this series of statements?

Anyone who shaves my sales is a theif. I would not want to work with someone who did that, given the choice. Further, if I shaved peoples' sales, that would make me a thief. So, I will not ever shave sales on my program.

Question:
1. You make $1,000 per week with Sponsor A. Sponsor A was caught shaving.
2. You make $500 per week with Sponsor B. Sponsor B was not caught shaving.

Which sponsor will you be sending your traffic to ?


How about this one ?
1. You make $800 per week with Sponsor C. They claim your ratio is 1:30.
2. You make $900 per week with Sponsor D. They claim your ratio is 1:800

Which sponsor will you be sending your traffic to ?

That is why I haven't answered Goths question. I would like to think I would agree with his statement but know that in reality, as I've said, I want the bigger cheque. OK, a few dollars in it and I probably would switch feeling that the non-shaver is less likely to rip me off in a big way. However, even that cannot be said to be always true.

Depends how much traffic I have.

YOu left out the most important variable in that equation, the amount of traffic.

One cant make a choice or decision of amount without knowing how much he has.

There is a difference between...
"What would I do if I were a sponsor?" (I am.)
and
"Which sponsor would I use?"

As a webmaster, part of me would be very tempted by #1. Part of me would never trust them, and I would stick with #2. In the end, I am not sure what I would choose. However, as a sponsor, I would never use that logic to get sales. I will only advertise the actual numbers. Even if they aren't the best-looking numbers out there. Because I need to be honest with people. Hopefully some people will see that I am honest, and sign up, and make good money from my sites.

That one is easy. #2 makes me more money, and doesn't steal sales from me.

The question ASSUMES equal amount of same traffic, with the only variables being "claimed ratios" and "shaving".

I guess what I am saying is this... I can understand considering using a sponsor who shaves. Fine, it makes you more money and doesn't harm anyone but yourself, so it's your choice. Go ahead. However, I cannot see choosing to be the sponsor who does it. Because, no matter how much money either side makes, it is dishonest and wrong.

I think most people would agree that they want an honest sponsor. Someone who isn't handing them bullshit about their signups and the program, etc. They don't want a sponsor making excuses to justify the numbers, or how they're able to be paying $70 per signup or $100 per signup.

If I'm being completely honest though, I don't really care and I don't want to know. As a webmaster, I want the biggest paycheck.

Brujah... Still, you agree that they shouldn't be doing it, right? After all, some people do care, and those people are getting screwed against their will. People who are okay with it are one thing, but not everyone is.

Hey Gothweb, what's your ICQ? Hit me up on 5061408.

Cheers,
Backov

I agree. They shouldn't be doing it. (Answer your ICQ's btw).

stick with what makes you the most money

Backov- Added you to my ICQ, don't see you.
Brujah- Just sent you a message.

(A little worried maybe somethings up with my ICQ...)

YUP YUP....A bunch of thieving webmasters...no wonder this industry is all for the big people ...and the small webmaster are picked apart and stolen from

I'm ashamed to even be apart of such an industry...people who steal money from others just for there own personal gain.

And don't hand me no shit about " Ohh But I am your friend bullshit" because if most of you's were each others friend you wouldn't be stealing from them

IT'S ALL ABOUT ME ME ME ME ME and shaving !!

Where Where is the Vaseline...Let's all bend over and Get fucked real good. Now I know why I keep my motuh shut and don't associate with anyone.....It's hard to tell who is going to fuck ya next.

And here I thought I was promoting honest programs.....Man was I wrong.

Huh ?