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-   -   Is Western Action On Libya Justified? (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1014930)

Agent 488 03-20-2011 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 17992084)
anybody know where the rebels are getting their fighter jets?

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/af.../libya.planes/

Wide array of U.S. warplanes used in Libya attacks

Lilit 03-20-2011 09:15 AM

Like many people have said in this thread, it's business... And in each deal there are 2+ parties involved, and often they aim at totally opposite goals. If you take the position of one party, you'll find their reasoning right, if you take the position of another party your view of right and wrong can get absolutely different.

Each conflict like that is business, not involved in the conflict countries can nominally be trying to stop it but in reality make bank selling weapons. Speaking about moral - yes, that's wrong, but if the money helps the economy then it seems ok.

Another point - you never know the truth! Mass media has been the main political weapon for a long time now.

I've seen a few interviews related to the conflict, including the recent one with Saif Gaddafi, and he did bring up some interesting facts that partly justified the regime in my eyes.

But still I can't take this or that position in Libyan case because there are too many "buts".

What I know for sure though - politics overall is dirty shit. Can't blame them for that though, it's the result of our world structure and geopolitics, so they have to play the "game".

dyna mo 03-20-2011 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent 488 (Post 17992174)
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/af.../libya.planes/

Wide array of U.S. warplanes used in Libya attacks

those are not rebel airplanes, those are coalition forces.

dyna mo 03-20-2011 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent 488 (Post 17992170)
why would you think it's a rebel flying it? it's obviously western fighters.

wrong. western fighters hadn't entered libyan airspace on friday.

dyna mo 03-20-2011 09:19 AM

rebel jet crashes to ground

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...in-flames.html

dyna mo 03-20-2011 09:20 AM

he plane is believed to have been a MiG fighter whose pilot had defected with his aircraft to join the rebels. Libya had been a large-scale buyer of the Soviet jets and, though many are unserviceable, several have been used during the conflict. Libya’s air force has two types of MiG – the MiG 23 and the MiG 21.

Agent 488 03-20-2011 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 17992181)
wrong. western fighters hadn't entered libyan airspace on friday.

wtf are you talking about the timestamp of the story is today the 20th.

you even listen to the report? civilians are thanking the west for stopping the libyan forces with air attacks on a military base.

stop arguing and pushing your viewpoint and be aware and read correctly. you never do.

brassmonkey 03-20-2011 09:27 AM

im grilling some burgers and watching college hoops. have fun. :)

dyna mo 03-20-2011 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent 488 (Post 17992190)
wtf are you talking about the timestamp of the story is today the 20th.

you even listen to the report? civilians are thanking the west for stopping the libyan forces with air attacks on a military base.

stop arguing and pushing your viewpoint and be aware and read correctly. you never do.

assvent 488, shut the fuck up. i asked a fucking legitimate question, not pushing a viewpoint you myopic dimwit. it's not my fault you can't understand something so simple as "where do the REBELS get their jets from?

dyna mo 03-20-2011 09:31 AM

assvent 488, you dumb fucking cunt

A rebel-operated jet fighter has crashed in Benghazi - as Libyan forces intend to deploy 'human shields' to thwart a UN-backed bombing campaign.

FP said rebel forces confirmed that a former Libyan air force jet crashed as it sought to attack loyalist troops on the outskirts of the rebel-held city in eastern Libya.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20110319/...s-3fd0ae9.html

Agent 488 03-20-2011 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 17992199)
assvent 488, shut the fuck up. i asked a fucking legitimate question, not pushing a viewpoint you myopic dimwit. it's not my fault you can't understand something so simple as "where do the REBELS get their jets from?

the jets in that story were western forces. not my fault you can't read and get confused easily.

dyna mo 03-20-2011 09:34 AM

more for assvent 488 fucking dipshit/

Rebel MiG-23's Sink Gaddafi Ships Off Libyan Coast
http://dailybail.com/home/rebel-mig-...yan-coast.html

dyna mo 03-20-2011 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent 488 (Post 17992206)
the jets in that story were western forces. not my fault you can't read and get confused easily.

assvent 488 you fucking retard. i asked the question "where do the libyan rebels get their planes?" and your dimwit dumbass replied "the west" and you say i get confused.

dipshit

There are reports coming out of Libya this afternoon that Libyan rebels have been using their own MiG-23's, sinking two of Gaddafi's ships and damaging a third.
]

dyna mo 03-20-2011 09:41 AM

The rebellion has started to fly fighter jets of its own, and that they helped drive Qaddafi’s jets away from Ajdabiya today.

dyna mo 03-20-2011 09:47 AM

at least two Mirage F-1s defected to Malta (one of the pilots is rumored to be a Libyan colonel), plus another 3-4 pilots switched sides as well. That’s about 4-6 pilots which form the “Free Libyan Air Force’’.

dyna mo 03-20-2011 09:52 AM

Two Libyan Air Force fighter pilots defected on Monday and flew their jets to Malta where they told authorities they had been ordered to bomb protesters, Maltese government officials said.

The Demon 03-20-2011 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nico-t (Post 17991561)
it's a business, anyone who is trying to bring their little brainwashed ideas and agendas into this, please shut up. Power, which is in turn money, is the keyword for politics. EVERY political decision is being made on this basis. If you even believe in sides like 'democrats', 'republicans', you are a brainwashed little cockroach.

The irony of calling idea A "brainwashing" while introducing brainwashing idea B.

davecummings 03-20-2011 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 17991106)
We must help the Libyan people (the same people who were just cheering for their "hero" who blew up the commercial plane over Lockerbie Scotland)

Bottom line...when the smoke clears and the new govt. is in place...they will end up being crazy Muslim theocrats who hate our guts

I heard someone say that just like the Iran/Iraq war of many years ago killed off a lot of folks, some of whom might have later otherwise turned into jihadists against the western world, maybe it's best to let Middle East rebels and their governments battle each other extensively and let them also kill off some of potential future religious terrorists amongst themselves.

davecummings 03-20-2011 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam (Post 17991912)
I find the current "crisis" in Bahrain more worrisome.
Libya is a sideshow and Qaddafi is an assclown.

As far as those insisting that this is all about oil ? the same ones said that the War in Iraq was all about oil. To this day Iraqi oil production has not increased much nor has oil's price fallen on the world markets as a benefit of these wars, incursions, meddling in internal affairs or whatever the mantra be.

Use of petrochemical fuel has little future now. The predictions of gasoline at today's prices was made years ago with the current high costs leading to the development of alternative forms of transportation not reliant on petrochemical fuel. So, unless OPEC floods the market with cheap oil fast, OPEC's own greed will be their own demise.

This recession that we are in was triggered by excessive energy prices at its core. Combined with the "financial crisis" scam as the reason waived before the public for the looting of the peoples assets and livelihoods. So, who is screwing who? Most of us are on the receiving end as usual. Those of us who maintain that we are the higher part of the food chain feel the pain of the others worse off in the form of sluggish business growth, lost sales and the resulting revenue loss.

I would rather pay "too much" for alternative fuels to domestic suppliers than pay the "oil tax" to OPEC and the like. Perhaps a lousy trade off but in the long run this will allow developed countries to regulate fuel costs with the political and economic consequences in consideration.

In spite of those who repeat and repeat and repeat that America's after the oil in those other countries, I think that America doesn't want to steal/take-over any country's oil, but rather just wants to help the situation as a means of keeping that country's oil flowing.

Has anyone got any actual proof that America has stolen oil production from Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, or anyplace else?

Robbie 03-20-2011 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davecummings (Post 17992295)
In spite of those who repeat and repeat and repeat that America's after the oil in those other countries, I think that America doesn't want to steal/take-over any country's oil, but rather just wants to help the situation as a means of keeping that country's oil flowing.

Has anyone got any actual proof that America has stolen oil production from Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, or anyplace else?

Exactly. It's American oil companies living there and getting the oil to begin with. No way in hell the U.S. govt. wants to actually TAKE the oil and make it cheap. lol

Our oil companies WANT it to be expensive. And they also want to make sure that they can keep it flowing...as do the Arab countries. Everybody gets rich...except us and the goat herders on the ground in the Mid East

CDSmith 03-20-2011 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 17992226)
The rebellion has started to fly fighter jets of its own,

Soon, if they're lucky, one of them will hit a 2 meter-wide vent and the death star will go bye-bye.

May the force be with them.

CDSmith 03-20-2011 11:35 AM

"Is Western Action On Libya Justified?"

I don't know, ask the several high-up Libyan officials, ex-pats, and the Libyan ambassador himself that question. All of them have been on CNN and other news networks over the past few weeks asking if not outright begging the world (but particularly the US) to help their country's people, by way of enforcing a no-fly zone and providing military air strikes.

Those of you making it out like the evil west is yet again "sticking it's nose where it's unwanted" simply haven't been watching the news.

dyna mo 03-20-2011 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendot (Post 17991771)
Ouch, I guess I pick em up off GFY. In that case, I apologise to Selena.....
On reflection it was totally out of order what I said.

The reason Im so fiercely pissed off right now is that theres zero debate, no chance of a war one week ago and now suddenly we're at war. Why the fuck are we once again meddling in arab affairs?

We we're fine with Mubarak in Egypt for long enough. And even Gaddafi and now Obama/Cameron are using stupid justifications like Gaddafi's threats to Benghazi rebels....

:thumbsup:2 cents:

Robbie 03-20-2011 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith (Post 17992373)
"Is Western Action On Libya Justified?"

I don't know, ask the several high-up Libyan officials, ex-pats, and the Libyan ambassador himself that question. All of them have been on CNN and other news networks over the past few weeks asking if not outright begging the world (but particularly the US) to help their country's people, by way of enforcing a no-fly zone and providing military air strikes.

Those of you making it out like the evil west is yet again "sticking it's nose where it's unwanted" simply haven't been watching the news.

I've been watching.

None of us know the real inside story. But my guess is it's the same old song and dance. The "opposition" wants to get their hands on the billions of dollars that the oil companies pay the Colonel now.

And we have NO business interfering with the internal affairs of another sovereign country. Just like we would shit our pants if Russia suddenly decided to do the same to us.

The Demon 03-20-2011 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 17992396)
I've been watching.

None of us know the real inside story. But my guess is it's the same old song and dance. The "opposition" wants to get their hands on the billions of dollars that the oil companies pay the Colonel now.

And we have NO business interfering with the internal affairs of another sovereign country. Just like we would shit our pants if Russia suddenly decided to do the same to us.

You would have made a great isolationist during WWII.

Robbie 03-20-2011 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 17992415)
You would have made a great isolationist during WWII.

Damn straight...

We entered WWII because we were attacked. And then FDR asked Congress for a Declaration Of War. You know...the way the law says it's supposed to be done.

Not the way we've been doing it lately.

We haven't been attacked. None of our allies whom we have signed defense treaties were attacked. Congress did not declare war.

Sound familiar? (hint: Iraq)

_Richard_ 03-20-2011 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 17992300)
Exactly. It's American oil companies living there and getting the oil to begin with. No way in hell the U.S. govt. wants to actually TAKE the oil and make it cheap. lol

Our oil companies WANT it to be expensive. And they also want to make sure that they can keep it flowing...as do the Arab countries. Everybody gets rich...except us and the goat herders on the ground in the Mid East

american oil companies?

history kinda shows that a lot of the people making the most money are europeans..

CDSmith 03-20-2011 12:32 PM

If the US/UN/etc does nothing and the Libyan people end up getting massacred (which they would) the US would be criticized and vilified by the world for turning a blind eye.

If they lift a finger to help they are criticized and vilified for butting in where they don't belong.

Always love a good catch 22 story. Don't you Robbie?

Vendot 03-20-2011 02:19 PM

Seems the Arab League is having some doubts about this:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...045027,00.html

Ive seen this story covered in UK media also.

The problem is that the whole idea is to stop Gaddafi attacking his people. The principle is supposed to be about no fly zone and NOT regime change. However, its clear that what the west actually wants is regime change because if Gaddafi then stops all actions, what can they do? (that doesnt go outside the limits of their remit).

Its becoming pretty clear if you watch news media now that this whole thing has not been thought out properly. Theyll find a way to get Gaddafi though....

Bryan G 03-20-2011 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks (Post 17991142)
Should the US have not intervened in WWII, or are you happy we routed Hitler?

Please shut the fuck up. You did not route shit. Try the russians more like it.

Robbie 03-20-2011 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith (Post 17992441)
If the US/UN/etc does nothing and the Libyan people end up getting massacred (which they would) the US would be criticized and vilified by the world for turning a blind eye.

If they lift a finger to help they are criticized and vilified for butting in where they don't belong.

Always love a good catch 22 story. Don't you Robbie?

Yeah, it sucks. I'm already seeing on the news today that the Arab countries are getting pissed because we (as usual) have overreached and instead of just making it a "no fly" zone we are now bombing the hell out of Libya.

I guess the oil companies are gonna get every last dollar of profit while they still can until people FINALLY have enough of this shit...and then they will go to work on a way to make us pay a "rental" fee on the sun next. lol

Robbie 03-20-2011 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_ (Post 17992440)
american oil companies?

history kinda shows that a lot of the people making the most money are europeans..

Yeah American oil companies. Except for BP (British) and Citgo (Venezuela)

Barry-xlovecam 03-20-2011 06:10 PM

The National Oil Corporation (NOC) is the national oil company of Libya.
Quote:

[In] the 1970s Libya initiated a socialist style nationalization program under which the government either nationalized oil companies or became a participant in their concessions, production and transportation facilities.[6] As part of this program, NOC signed production-sharing agreements with Occidental Petroleum, Sincat (Italy), and formed a joint drilling company with Saipem (an Eni subsidiary). The was accompanied by nationalization of ConocoPhillips's Umm Farud field in 1970, British Petroleum's Sarir field in 1971 and Amoco's Sahabir field in 1976. After commencement of the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, Saudi Arabia, Libya, and other Arab states proclaimed an embargo on oil exports to countries who supported Israel, primarily the United States. Additionally, the NOC had encountered legal actions by BP over claims of ownership. Although the 1973 oil crisis increased global demand, BP's legal position made some countries wary of importing from Libya. NOC compensated for this weakness by arranging barter deals with France and Argentina. On March 18, 1974, the Arab oil ministers ended the US-embargo, with Libya being the sole exception. During 1974, agreements were reached with Exxon, Mobil, Elf Aquitaine and Agip provided production-sharing on a 85-15 basis onshore, 81-19 offshore. Eventually, all the foreign companies (excluding BP) agreed to partial nationalization, providing Libya with a substantial oil surplus. ...











.

The Demon 03-20-2011 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 17992427)
Damn straight...

We entered WWII because we were attacked. And then FDR asked Congress for a Declaration Of War. You know...the way the law says it's supposed to be done.

Not the way we've been doing it lately.

We haven't been attacked. None of our allies whom we have signed defense treaties were attacked. Congress did not declare war.

Sound familiar? (hint: Iraq)

What you DIDN'T know was that FDR had plenty of intelligence that stated Pearl Harbor would be attacked but needed a reason to get into the war to appease the isolationist Republicans(lol at the irony of party switches within half a century), and he got what he wanted, legal or not.

Quote:

Please shut the fuck up. You did not route shit. Try the russians more like it.
Hey dumbshit, do you have ANY knowledge of World History? Do you know why the Russians were able to route the Germans freely? Because the US was occupied fighting the Japanese their region and Germany/Italy in Africa.

Robbie 03-20-2011 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 17992895)
What you DIDN'T know was that FDR had plenty of intelligence that stated Pearl Harbor would be attacked but needed a reason to get into the war to appease the isolationist Republicans(lol at the irony of party switches within half a century), and he got what he wanted, legal or not.

I've read that many times over the years. And I believe it 100%. I don't put anything past our govt. including back in the 1940's

But now we don't even pretend to follow our constitution and the checks and balances of our laws anymore to restrain the govt's power.

And bottom line is this: Libya didn't invade anybody. They didn't attack us. They didn't attack any or our allies that we signed defense treaties with.

There are more people being slaughtered in an hour in Darfur...yet we just watch that go by...as we SHOULD. But when there is oil involved? Now we're gonna roll with it? And if it isn't the oil, then WHAT is it that makes one shitty god-forsaken country full of people that hate us more "deserving" of us bombing them than another?

I don't want my tax money spent for that. But they didn't ask me for permission. lol

The Demon 03-20-2011 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 17992977)
I've read that many times over the years. And I believe it 100%. I don't put anything past our govt. including back in the 1940's

But now we don't even pretend to follow our constitution and the checks and balances of our laws anymore to restrain the govt's power.

And bottom line is this: Libya didn't invade anybody. They didn't attack us. They didn't attack any or our allies that we signed defense treaties with.

There are more people being slaughtered in an hour in Darfur...yet we just watch that go by...as we SHOULD. But when there is oil involved? Now we're gonna roll with it? And if it isn't the oil, then WHAT is it that makes one shitty god-forsaken country full of people that hate us more "deserving" of us bombing them than another?

I don't want my tax money spent for that. But they didn't ask me for permission. lol

So let me get this straight. When we attack a country, the quickest idiotic response is "we want their oil lolz". Now, when we genuinely try to help people (Bosnia/Bosnia), the idiotic response is "we have no right to invade a country!!" So tell me oh foolish smut peddlers, when does this country win?

Robbie 03-20-2011 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 17992989)
when does this country win?

This country shouldn't be out there doing any of that. The whole Bosnians wiping out the Muslims was a European problem. They didn't seem to give a damn about it and let it happen.

It was none of our business. But we did something and saved all those Muslims. And what did it get us?

I'm kinda surprised that even after the shit we've done since 9-11 that people still seem to think we should go and bomb other countries.

A general was on CNN today and said that we shouldn't worry because they have those missiles tweaked to avoid killing civilians. And that no "significant" loss of civilians is expected.

Well....if I were a Libyan, and a cruise missile accidentally killed MY wife...I would consider that to be very "significant" and I would spend the rest of my days trying to kill Americans.

That's just one of the problems of us going into these countries illegally and bombing them. No matter what happens...we CAN'T "win".

Just like if Libya started bombing a large city in the United States. Every American in that city that survived the bombing would be out for Libyan blood.

We are creating new "terrorists" every time we start killing people over there.

Bring home ALL of our military. And let's spend the money here at home making our lives better instead of killing people in small countries. And then IF anybody EVER attacks the U.S. (hasn't happened since the Japs at Pearl Harbor and before that since the war of 1812) THEN let's unleash holy hell on them.

Sausage 03-20-2011 08:48 PM

Why is the US expected to do all the heavy lifting again? Why can't countries in the region take care of their own back yard for a change ?

directfiesta 03-20-2011 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausage (Post 17993044)
Why is the US expected to do all the heavy lifting again? Why can't countries in the region take care of their own back yard for a change ?

US are not "expected "...

They more then happily volunteer to bomb people .. it is in their blood ...:2 cents:

rogueteens 03-20-2011 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks (Post 17991142)
Should the US have not intervened in WWII, or are you happy we routed Hitler?

what, all on your own? Troll or idiot?


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