Funny, all the material I "put together" was made in the US.

I have to ask, name something we can't manufacture?

Yes, I'm sure you inspected every part. It is odd that 40-50 years ago Japan had robotic assembly lines for cars, by the 70's they hwere making some American car parts, by the 80's producing cars within our Country. Yet... all your parts were American.


Clearly a giant ass bridge and whatever else we don't have patents on.

We also do not have the ability to mass produce electronics on a scale to keep up with your economy.... we do not have enough equipment here to do it, nor enough places setup to do it, nor enough trained people to do it, nor enough low wage people to keep the cost of the product low enough so those people could afford it.

We're still one of the largest manufactures in the world... we just don't make the same shit we once did.

Nobody should EVER be "bailed out". And as I've pointed out over and over and over again...WHO did the "Bailing Out" and who has always given corporations all kinds of tax breaks, etc. ?

THE FEDERAL GOVT.

They are the crooks.

I know that if I went to the feds and they offered to give me BILLIONS of dollars, I would damn sure take it AND give myself a giant pay raise. Wouldn't you?

If the Congress and Senate weren't such THIEVES and CROOKS...it wouldn't matter if a big corporation tried to buy them off. Instead of pocketing the money they would have those business leaders thrown in jail for trying to buy influence. Problem solved.

But they don't.

Remember...people can claim that business owns govt and post funny cartoons about it all day long. But in the end, you can't own what CAN'T BE BOUGHT. And our career politicians are all for sale.

VOTE THEM ALL OUT AND STOP WHINING. This whole charade is nothing more than those same crooks in office trying to deflect the fact that THEY should all be in jail for basically spending their entire lives fucking over the American people. Both "Democrats" and "Republicans" (since most of you believe that fairy tale that there is a real difference)

I want you to look at this website and look at the first, the very first thing they say they make!
http://www.ironworkers.org

Then there is this company that is a fabricator of steel bridges and bridge components, operates manufacturing plants in Coraopolis, Pennsylvania, and Reedsport, Oregon. Funny how they are called American Bridge and they are the ones that are assembling the bridge and they have manufacturing plants that make those components

So don't tell we can't, that's bull shit and you know it

Andf stop changing the subject with what is cost to make a TV, thats not what we were talking about.

The Government had no alternative. Don't bail the banks out and the Western World loses one of it's biggest earners and goes bust. Do bail them out and we hang on for a bit longer.

The crunch will come when China decides to have the banking industry, they will shoot the fuckers who lose money.

Take a look at Greece. They enjoyed a lot of benefits from the loans they should never of asked for and never been given. Now they're told to slow down on the spending and there are riots.

US debt is exactly the same on a smaller scale. The US, you're still in the US Robbie and earning money from US citizens, borrowed trillions to fund your style of living. Now it's payback time. Except the US shipped so many jobs overseas, so you could buy cheap goods made in a sweat factory, it hasn't got much money to spend. So borrowing some more.

The Republicans will cut Government spending, just like all the recent Republican Presidents. :Oh crap

They won't cut spending where they need votes. I'll bet money on that. Just going on previous administrations.

Looks like the cost was too much, as already stated - logically they have a budget, it's not endless money here.

Your sub-topic twist of what we can or can't manufacture isn't a factor in this, go argue with the guy in the article that said it..... Either way, the State/Budget doesn't have the money to pay for it, at American corp, shipping and labor prices. But by splitting it up, they can have it assembled here by our labor force.

You asked what we couldn't manufacture, I answered, I didn't bring tv costs into anything. And the car example simply shows the shift of technology with manufacturing scaling over the decades, thus thinking it didn't happening in building materials as well, is pure silly.

And, we still manufacture here, so I would expect to find a little bit of every Industry still working away.

What a load of BS. You brought up electronics
You said we can't do it, then when I show you we can, you say cost, go back and read the article I posted.
Shift of technology, bull shit, it's called cheap labor achieved by the means of our government ginving China NAFTA and letting them set the exchange rate of their money to ours.
And don't give me this shit about us assembling it and making it cheaper, you may want to farm out our country, I don't

The only person between Americans and Jobs at this point is this asshole.

http://freedomist.com/wp-content/upl...08/Boehner.jpg

The bailout "might" be arguable "IF" - they didn't steal 1/3 of the countries wealth through fraud before hand to create the need of the bailout in the first place. With that added in, they should have failed.

Banks have failed before, even big ones, the world keeps moving. :thumbsup

China is a fake economy, the minute it has to take care of it's people, it's broke.

Greece is the result of mass deregulation, the same thing we've done here and are trying to do more of, which will create the situation in Greece, here.

Actually, American's GDP clearly shows we produce a godly amount of money, add in our corps, and kiss the debt good buy. We are still standing strong, because of this factor. If they truly cut spending correctly, the scale would reverse so quickly it would throw the rest of the world's economies off.


And agreed... based on several previous admins, they will not cut spending in the right places, at any factor.

I think what you wrote is a little abstract. The conversation between liberal and conservative is really a conversation between left and right brain thinking. Though some can equally use both hemispheres or learn to, for the most part we all tend to remain biased largely due to various forms of cognitive dissonance.

The paradox in its application to politics, is that both sides and the argument itself defines the center. The more heated the debate and argument, the more the center is clearly defined (though neither side might agree there is a center).

You also mentioned in response to me that both sides could be 100% right. This is exactly true. It's more a question of being willing to accept the other as being right, which is the hurdle since an individual tends to be quite defensive about his/her beliefs, which when changed, have much wider psychological implications since that single viewpoint is usually tied to and an integral part of a much larger world view and body of beliefs.


Is this an old woman? Young girl? Conservative/Liberals argue it can and is only one or the other.

You might pause and reflect on your incessant far left ranting. Maybe you're not 100% right all the time??
http://boomeryearbook.com/blog/wp-co...young-girl.jpg

So it wasn't that 1/3 of the people there are employed by the government?

Nice Spin!!

Huh? You asked this...

I said electronics, edit: on a mass scale....

The url you showed me was iron workers, I only said what the article did on that topic. My focus was the cost and has been throughout.

We had this shift happening way before NAFTA. And I don't think the trade agreement with have with China is good for our Country either.


I didn't say we should farm our country out... working in the global economy has nothing to do with farming us out.

Now that you bring it up, mass automated assembly does make things cheaper.

They went through mass-deregulation first.

No spin needed.

What were you waiting on when Bush was in office? A democrat to blame for your republican's fuck ups?

Not that it was Bush's doing...but the economy was kicking ass for 7 of his 8 years, even with 9-11 happening. I never made more money in my life. And everyone I knew in this business was making a killing as well. People all around me had money...one of my brothers is a car salesman and he was making damn near as much money as I was selling cars to "average" people (Ford dealership).

My other brother is a fishing captain and paid off his nice home in Port Charlotte, Fla right on the ocean in 5 years he was making so much money.

Hard to blame somebody when everything is running on all cylinders.

But Obama just hasn't done anything. As was already pointed out: Reagan was able to LEAD and get Tip O'Neil to get the Democratic controlled House & Senate to work with him even though they hated and vilified him at every turn.

Clinton was able to get Newt Gingrich and the Republican controlled House and Senate to work with him even though they hated his guts and even impeached him!

But Obama? 3 years in and he just now FINALLY comes up with some ideas for jobs? And his ideas are really just another bailout with a new name?

I voted for him. Really though he was gonna be different. Instead he has disappointed everyone. I know you will argue that...but just watch what happens in 2012.

Right, your focus was on the cost, damn man, memory going?

Are you serious?

And as I've also said, if you're going to argue with us not being able to build it, argue with with the guy that said it:

Can we please just get a Republican candidate who doesn't care about who you fuck or want to marry, doesn't care about what you believe in or anything else that we do as individuals so I can vote for him or her please?

Thanks!

The guy in the article lied and I proved it, they do have the resources with American Bridge, they have the warehouses and equipment. And if you read what I posted,the money saved on unemployment and healthcare by hiring those people to build this would offset more than 400 million, much more.

You said we don't even have a way to build it and you are WRONG!!!

But you'll bring out charts and graphs that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt I'm wrong, just like you think that 1/3 of employed people in Greece had nothing to do with their problems.
Years of unrestrained spending, cheap lending and failure to implement financial reforms left Greece badly exposed when the global economic downturn struck.

Mmmmm, a sandwich...

http://www.24x7photography.com/wp-co...8/Sandwich.jpg

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. :)

Thing is you're playing the "assume" game... You assume they could build it, you assume they could build it for cali, and you assume cali could afford it. Of course the guy in the article is suggesting differently, but you posted a url to a steal workers site, and proved him wrong... :helpme


The 70's and 80's saw higher unemployement rates because of the fall of the dictatorship. For 40 years now, the rates have went up and down, during peaks of economic times and bottoms. So, I'm going to have to say, no... it's not the unemployment rate, all the sudden causing problems, in the last year or so.

In the 80's almost all banks were publicly owned in greece and was regulated by the Bank of Greece. Banks straight up didn't care about profit. In the late 80s they had abolished credit restrictions and they started to centralize interest rates. By the 90's Greece was basically bankrupt. By 2003 they had no consumer rating index, the banks had removed themselves from having to cover public debts 'they created', all quality restrictions were gone, and the people were forced to take on debt by the EU basically making the 00's look pretty when the reality was, it was getting worse.

So again, no.. I don't think it's unemployment when it's very easy to go research want happened to them and once you know they've had great economic times, stability, low fraud, etc - with high unemployment & people taken care of. Thing is, once you do look.... you'll see it's the exact same game plan the extreme right has for America, a plan that has already failed.

You have selective memories.. First off Democrats are always more willing to work with the president if they have control of house and senate. So they in turn worked with Regan but of course did the typical political ins and outs.

When Clinton was pres, the Republicans tried to pin shit on him non stop from the time he entered office til he left. They also shut down the govt when Clinton wouldn't budge on their bullshit.

Republicans are the problem..they have a very long history of doing anything possible to "not" work with the democrats when the democrats have the white house.

Not to mention the economy was already in shambles when Bush was leaving office. He sent the balling rolling and did his own bank bail outs for that matter and it's not something any president would fix what was happening over night.

Now add in a Republican Senate and House that absolutely will not work with the president and it's no wonder our economy has not progressed. The question is how can you honestly not blame the Republicans at this point just as much as Obama if you intend to blame him?

Ronald Reagan and the conservative Heritage Foundation were the first to propose a free trade agreement in 1980 as part of his measures to get us out of the period of stagflation we were in at the time. Free trade is a core tenant of conservative values.

http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...rade-agreement

Clinton signed NAFTA into law with largely bi-partisan support, and all the politicians at the time -Republican and Democrat- said that NAFTA would assure Americans cheaper goods while increasing U.S. exports to the rest of the world. Moreover, the American workforce was told NAFTA would stimulate and create an estimated 200,000 jobs annually. They also said NAFTA would reduce illegal immigration from Mexico , would be instrumental in tackling drug trafficking, and would strengthen Mexican democracy and human rights. Well, the cheap goods part they got right.:thumbsup


Corporate and consumer greed is the main cause of it. I posted about this in another thread. Corporations in collusion with the government, under the guise of America becoming a service sector economy, outsourced tons of jobs to third world countries.


The American quality and standard of living will be stagnate over the next few generations, perhaps it will degrade slightly. As the global economy settles in on some equilibrium, developing nations standards of living will need to increase. Until that time, there is nothing that can be done short of out-and-out protectionism. And no self-respecting American consumerbot would ever go for that. Keep in mind that the founding fathers were heavily in support of protectionist policies.:2 cents:

Dude...there is no "Republican Senate" That is Demcratic controlled.

I SPECIFICALLY said that the Republicans HATED Clinton and even impeached him. But somehow he was able to get them to do his bidding and was able to LEAD our country to a period of growth, peace, and prosperity.

The economy did collapse around Sept/Oct. of 2008. But for his entire term...Bush had a roaring economy, and was able to keep it going by LEADING, even after the 9-11 nightmare.

Obama is not showing any leadership. Period.

But let's get specific:
WHY did he go into closed door negotiations with the big pharmacy companies immediately and insure that they would not have to drop their prices down to the levels that the rest of the world pays? Again...BEHIND CLOSED DOORS (after promising 100% transparency during the campaign)

Why did he sit there giving speeches and going on vacation while he handed the job of "health care" to the Congress and didn't do ANYTHING for "job creation" during the first 2 years when he had historically high approval ratings and control of both Houses?

He is not a leader. You're making excuses. Again, as Bill Maher says on his show: "He's your president, NOT your boyfriend"

See him for what he is...a guy who campaigned really good and then just wasn't the right guy for the job.
Quite frankly I wish a Democrat would challenge him for the nomination...but that ain't gonna happen.

The next president will be the Republican nominee. And the only one to blame for that is Obama himself.

If he had shown the leadership of Clinton or Reagan he could have really done something. But he talked a great game and then when he got into office he did a lot of nothing. And the things he did do were pretty much just like the mistakes that Bush made...only without the leadership qualities that Bush had.

I guess you will believe it when the election happens in 2012.
Not that it matters in the really big picture because they are all the same anyway. But having a guy with leadership qualities always makes the country settle down. And right now the business community is very skittish. They are looking for a new president.

And so am I and a lot of other people like me who did vote for Obama in 2008 and feel betrayed.

It appeared as if we had a period of prosperity during Dubya's administration, but we now know that it was an artificially created prosperity to deal with the burst of the dot com bubble and the ensuing recession that caused.


Republicans - and some Democrats - would like to bring us back to pre Roosevelt times. They refuse to acknowledge the fact that the policies put forth in the New Deal laid the groundwork for the longest period of uninterrupted prosperity in the nation's history. See what happened when we repealed the Glass-Steagall act? The bill to repeal Glass-Steagall was written by two Republican Senators, passed by a Republican majority and signed into law by Clinton. So all the shit flinging done on this board between the left and the right is pointless. The fact is that for the past thirty years, starting with Reagan, this country has been controlled by special interest groups with the money to lobby politicians. It was the same before Roosevelt took office in the thirties. Herbert Hoover and Warren G. Harding were arguably two of the worst presidents in American history, and GW will go down in history as one of the worst presidents as well.


Bush didn't lead shit, he just spoke with conviction so people thought he was a strong leader. Kind of like Obama. His administration was calling the shots most likely. Crooks like Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld.

-Freidrich Nietzsche

Wow, really?

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/...ord-on-record/

I really hope that Americans get a third party soon because this left vs right bull shit is so played, Obama's owned by Goldman Sachs, Romney's owned by Citibank. And if your gonna reply with Ron Paul you had better have the balls to stand behind him in a un winnable election!

People are becoming more and more fed up with the status quo, and I think a lot of people feel let down by Obama. That's why you're seeing this occupy shit. He campaigned like he was FDR reincarnated but he's shown so far that he's just another two-faced politician, and lets face it, there aren't any real alternatives unless Hillary Clinton runs against him in 12' which she won't do because it would probably divide the base and lose the presidency for the Democrats. Ted Kennedy ran against Jimmy Carter in 1980 and arguably cost him a reelection.


The problem is that ALL of them are career politicians, Ron Paul included. They're so far removed from the reality of regular human beings that do actual work for a living it's ridiculous.


Nixon proposed an employer-mandate healthcare system, and Kennedy and the AFL CIO demanded single payer. We got NOTHING.

Carter offered his plan for comprhensive healthcare and Ted Kennedy refused out of spite. We got nothing.

So for the last 30-40 years there has been no plan. Just imagine if an employer-mandate was put in place back then? Think of how it could have expanded over time? Medicare started off with 1 million. Now it has 50 million enrolled.

But there wasn't a plan in place, because politicians refused compromise. And we ended up with nothing. It's all a game to them.

Sorry, thought you read? They are bridge builders, first fucking sentence, quit acting like a moron to try and get past this, I know you're smarter. Who the fuck do you think is putting the bridge together? Guess what? It's those very iron workers.
You think the US can't build a fucking bridge? Are you that clueless? The US can build this! They build the baddest war ships on the planet, and you think they can't build a fucking bridge? They pour the steel in foundry's right here in ther US.

Do you really think that the millions of dollars sent to another country to purchase a bridge is going save $400 million dollars versus spending the money in the US and employing US citizens and having it built in a US company. I really can't grasp the fucked up logic in your thinking on this.


Do you real think 2/3rd's of the working people can support the other 1/3 in high paying job vs via taxes and have a good economy? Seriously?

govt doesnt create jobs...

I think you're giving way too much credit for the New Deal. You forgot how bad inflation got during the 70's
Carter just didn't have a clue.
Presidents make mistakes, all of them, you want to bust them on it, go for it, it's still not going to fix what Obama is trying to do, right now he wants to have a 2nd stimulus. Everyone that thinks this is a good idsea,. raise your hand!

Japan tried it, kept spending, google Japans lost decade

I totally aggree, I may not have liked a lot of what Clinton did, but he was a leader and didn't bitch about the republicans like Obama, is anyone else tired of his whining?

The Obama government does not give incentives to businesses to create jobs. It gives incentives to be a parasite. That's the problem.

Im tired of your whining you brainwashed tool.

Might have "saved" Jobs, BUT at what cost per person, per job?
So we Create jobs that last till the money runs out, at a Higher cost. Seems like the same as the Military payin $400 for a $10 item.

Well let's ask ourselves. Were we MAKING more money or just spending more?

Was industry growing, was more real wealth being created, or were we just spending more of money we were not earning?

The growth of places like China shows you exactly where the wealth went. 1970 at the height of Chairman Mao's Cultural Revolution he had destroyed most of China's industry, infrastructure and food production they had. Yes 40 years ago many in China were starving to death. Look what exporting has bought them.

1945 Japan was in a similar position. Took them 40 years to be a major car, electronics and other goods, production center.

And the only thing that was keeping the Western economies afloat, was Wall Street and The City. Plus other Western Financial sectors. OWS is a secret 5th column plot by China to grab that sector. When they get so pissed off off, they decide Beijing is a better home. Bit of sarcasm there, but think if Wall Street did decide to move out of the US lock stock and barrel.

Again, I saw on the website they built bridges as well. No, it does not mean we can build that bridge. For all you know they're busy and simply don't have enough time to take on the project - but chances are, they simply cost too much.

You assume, far far far more information than you have.

Yes, saving $400 million in a bankrupt state is very important and smart. Yes, logically any business that can save 400 million should. The logic is simple.... they didn't have enough money to pay Americans to build it.



You are focused on the the problems today rather than how they got that way.

And yes, just like in America, yes.

So you expect Obama to create demand so corps have a reason to create jobs? You people on the extreme right are borderline crazy in the way you think one day then twist the next.

Yeah, I agree, he keeps giving tax cuts to the people that should be creating jobs, but don't. That shit doesn't work, he needs to raise taxes on them, to 70-90%, let history do a little talking then, then the jobs will come.

In a nutshell this is what today's version of the Republican party is all about.

Talk about fucked up priorities? It doesn't get much worse than this.

The word pathetic doesn't even begin to describe that pack of hand wringing, bible thumping old ladies that now call themselves Republicans.

Ronald Reagan is rolling over in his grave.

And this country desperately needs a viable third party.

I create a *shit* LOAD of 'Jobs' in the toilet each morning...

But society dictates that I have to flush them all away :(

The recession of the 70's started under Nixon as a result of the US leaving the gold standard. As a matter of fact, every recession we've had in the past forty years has started under a republican administration.


People think Jimmy Carter was a terrible president but he was actually trying to solve the problems we faced in terms of the long run instead of living for the retarded moment, ignoring our problems and hoping they go away, which was the policy of the Reagan administration. Jimmy Carter tried to rid us of our dependence on foreign oil after the whole fiasco with OPEC and he was laughed at. Look at all the fucking trouble we would have saved ourselves if we had started focusing on the problem back then rather than ignoring it. All of this bullshit in the middle east could have been avoided. No, we didn't want that, we're AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!!! We'll just come and take your fucking oil and overthrow your government.


It's going to take a fucking nuclear bomb getting set off within our borders by a terrorist for us to stop fucking around where we don't belong.