For all I care they could build the entire thing and assemble it too.


And clearly they are very different things.


Sorry, the Statistics do not support your theory.


And clearly they are very different things.



And clearly they are very different things.


And they could do it.... training someone doesn't mean they couldn't do the job, it means they couldn't do it how you wanted.



Okay, cool you think Nissan means Japanese Cars.

And if I had been to Japan I would probably know the entire middle of the island is empty. And if I wanted another lame twist, I would argue it.



No I didn't..

I said:

Truly, you can't be this thick headed....

By your logic, everyone has been dropping off unemployment insurance every month for 2+ years.

Fuck... use your god damn head.

I love how it's a lack of leadership that a person helps stop one of the largest economic drops in history and within a year starts to turn it around.... while working with people that refused to work with him, at all.... and he's a bad leader.

LOL.

Yes Nissan makes Japanese cars in the US and this is what you said

He didn't stop it, it hit bottom and he's done nothing to help it.

He's thinking like you that outsourcing is the solution

It's all about perception. And he seemed to be pre-occupied in his first two years with "health care".

There's a reason that people think he's "weak" and has no "leadership". And I'm not talking about partisan Republicans, I mean just your average ordinary people who don't even pay much attention to politics (most people)

He's in a lot of trouble. But nothing that wouldn't be turned around if some miracle happened and the unemployment rate dropped a LOT.

If that happens it's happy days again for Obama. It's a thin line between hero and goat.

Correct, I said "cool, you think Japanese cars are built here" - I never said Nissan nor argued your twisted point.

I also know Japanese cars are also made in Mexico and that Nissan makes cars all over the world.

But as I said above, this was just another lame twist of yours.

You're calling me an idiot when the unemployment has stayed above 9% nearly the entire time Obama has been in office and you think it's getting better, You offer no theory on this other than telling how many jobs have been added, he only added government jobs, not private sector jobs.

Government jobs are not gong to help, they will hurt, it takes taxes to pay them. Taxes we don't have. Obama spent all of it

I say nearly because it hit above 9 after he took office, thats the bottom it hit!

Unemployment rate 1980's
1980: 7.1%
81: 7.6
82: 9.7
83: 9.6

That's your ultimate leader, Ronald Regan.

See the scale here? It peaks while he's in office (which you blame Obama for) and the year after that, it only dropped .1% while Obama dropped it .3% the year after.

It wasn't until Regan's 4th year and into his next term that it really started to drop.


Yet, Obama is doing it allllll wrong, not fast enough, not good enough.... please......

The stimulus was mostly Gov jobs, however, the job growth in the economic today is a mixture of all jobs. Most of the money States had to fun that growth with already dried up.

When you said think, you made it sound sarcastic, it still sounds sarcastic, as in "You Think" Right after telling me chips are made in china, I gave you examples that differ fro that, but your panties are too far up your ass to accept that.

and when you said "only a fool would think it would help our economy to spend billions more."

Thats in direct conflict with what you have been preaching about the stimulus package, try to stick with what you believe in and not what will get you out of arguement

Quit being an asshole

I already posted about that

I like that he did healthcare first... it's the largest economic issue our Country has. While he didn't come out with a perfect plan, he did get out foot in the door.

I guess he has been a little weak, he should have just used his congressional powers to force everything through that was kicked back by the people that actually vote on it. Of course, when he did that everyone bitched he was over stepping his powers, then they bitched he didn't get it passed when he didn't use those powers.

Cool, then it's settled, it has nothing to do with today's numbers.

Correct, I don't accept the lame twist about cars when I brought up chips being in your pc that the gov also uses, related to you saying it's a security issue that China is building the bridge.

Not all that other shit you said.



It's very very very very simple to see the differences here... but for some reason, your twisted up hate is so fucking skewed you can't see anything for what it really is.



Holy fuck your logic is twisted.

The bridge project "saved" billions by using China, meaning it wouldn't have saved that money, a bonus, a key to help the economy. What you want to do is spend billions OVER the already blown out budget, spend MORE, thinking hiring some Americans would help, that some how spending more for what we got CHEAPER, is better... which is about as ass backwards logic as you can get.


I'm not being an asshole, you trying to compare these two is fucking straight up stupid!

That's certainly what they kept saying on the news at the time. "Health Care" "costs" "our country" etc., etc.

But common sense told me that it's the MEDICAL and Pharmaceutical COSTS that are the problem. We suddenly are a country that says everybody NEEDS insurance. When I was growing up that wasn't the case. Only well off people or union workers up north had health insurance. The rest of us just went to the doctor and paid for it in cash, it wasn't very expensive.

But I don't want to go into how fucked up that whole "health care" debacle is. To me (and many people) it amounts to forcing the American people to pay big insurance companies.
I felt he should have forced Congress to out itself and show that it allows the medical and pharmaceutical companies to price gouge us. But as history showed...it didn't work out that way.

Anyway...I don't think anyone in this country other than pundits and media were saying that health care was a priority at all.

Most companies were pointing out that it was costing them money to provide it for employees. And now that ObamaCare is passed...they are screaming that it's going to cost them a fortune.

Perhaps I'm wrong. But it LOOKS like Obama fucked that one up to me. He should have really took the lead like he appeared he would in the campaign and dragged half of Congress up on charges for the criminal enterprise that IS medicine and insurance companies gouging Americans OR he should have went all the way with universal health care paid for by our taxes.

He had the popularity and both houses of Congress.

Call me crazy...but that half-ass "health care" / insurance company bailout that passed is very indicative of the perception that he is weak and not a great leader.

And the fact I can even entertain that thought shows that he has a big problem.

If he had any balls...(and none of them ever do)...he would stop with the politics as usual and just DO what he feels is right in his heart and announce that he does not intend to run again anyway.

That's what ALL these career politicians should do. One and done.

Medical, Pharm, etc is part of our healthcare costs.

Other Countries force the price, here in America that's Communism. If Obama tried that, oh god.... oh lord.

Look at the polls when Obama was being elected about Healthcare, before all the fake death panel shit and lies about it came out. An extreme majority of the people wanted it, supported it, and even wanted it done, first!

The only choice they left him would require him to use congressional power or side step them, which is what he did.

The bill the came out with is a duplicate of the Republican bill. If his plan is weak, then so is the Republican plan.

I believe it shows how much the right will do to destroy the left, anything, at all costs, even ours.

:2 cents::2 cents::2 cents:
They will both do whatever it takes to demonize the other...
Always have... Always will

Great way to ignore the facts

Hey Baby!

http://cbxblog.com/wp-content/upload...Duds_intro.jpg

We got all your jobs right here, American bitches!

http://choyleefut.org/images/chan_yiu_chi_students.jpg

Arguing with thedoc is throwing pearls before swine

Facts like the ones I posted above/re-posted below? Or the fact that you're trying to find any excuse you can to explain why Obama's numbers have come down? Or that you pretty much ignore they've done down at all?

You know what's funny? You and TheDoc have basically switched political stances to have this little debate here. What you're arguing for is protectionism, and social programs, which is in direct conflict with the school of Austrian economics preaching free trade that the Republican party is a proponent of. I happen to agree with you, I think we need something similar to the Works Progress Administration that FDR put in place during the Great Depression. The Wpa, the Tennessee Valley Authority, all these public works programs that FDR established during the Great Depression built our highway infrastructue, our Dams and hydroelectric facilities like the Hoover dam, our national parks, our power plants and electrical grid was expanded, etc.


What the Republicans want to do is slash budgets and lay off government workers, which is only going to make the situation much worse than it already is. The problem is that the Republican party has moved so far to the right that any mention of a jobs program and they scream "Socialism". This is why the OWS movement formed, because the banks are being propped up by the government, meanwhile the middle/working class has been hung out to dry, they're the ones being asked to make all the sacrifices, and now they're using this recession as an excuse to break unions and filter even more money to the top. It's fucking disgusting.

Reagon did things that would give us a better economy, he dealt with the problems, lately, Obama is trying things that didn't work the first time a second time, like trying a new home mortgage program, a new student loan program, when the first one isn't in effect yet and yet another stimulus when the that didn't work as expected the first time, remember the first jjob of the stimulus was jobs. As I have shown, Government jobs has grown to spend all the money from the stimulus.

According to recovery.gov 545,262 people owe their jobs to the recovery act, contracts , grants and loans came to 221 billion, that's about 405,000 a person for jobs created.

Todays numbers, not to get back on subject, I know you hate that.

food stamp recipients now total 46,011,000 usda
officially unemployed now total almost 14 million total civilian Non Farm Unemployment Bureau of labor statistics
Actually unemployed now totals over 25 million plus all marginally attached workers, plus total part time for economic reasons
Total for US work force 140 million

I don't know how to deal with the goverment employees, but we can't afford to have so many people living on the tax dollars. I just hate Obama, I'm not a republican. I have two union cards. Yet I believe public workers have to take a cut. I had to take a cut once during a time as a union worker. The states have to make the budget. California has too many on welfare that shouldn't be, the present and every administration before this one has ignored the illegal immigration problem and now 50% of the population in LA county are hispanic. An elected official stated he believed the cost of illegal aliens in LA county was 1 billion dollars a year, yet they do nothing about it, we even voted in 187 and it got shot down by one judge, nice to know one judge has more power than the vote of the state.

Some of my views are progressive, but fiscally they are conservative. Narrow minded people seem to think you are either one or the other. I don't have that problem.

People want a better education but can't afford, military service
Want a smaller home loan, get a smaller home
Want more money, learn a trade
Have a problem with someone, hit them

Now someone can walk into a court room that you know with out you being there and get a restraining order, which takes away one of your constitutional rights to own a firearm. What constitutional right will they take away next?

I don't have much sympathy for people who aren't willing to work, for no good reason, either. I believe the government should be putting people to work building our infrastrucuture. We have a terrible mass transit system which contributes to our dependence on foreign oil. It's extremely hard to get a job in this country without a vehicle, even major metropolitan areas like LA have terrible mass transit systems, that's a problem that should be addressed, and it would put a lot of laid off construction workers back to work.


Almsot every apprenticeship has closed the books in Philadelphia, there's guys that have been laid off going on a year and a half. If you're a journeyman you're fucked because they're going to put the apprentices to work first. Shit, you go down south and you probably have to learn to speak Spanish to work in construction becuase immigrants take jobs that "nobody wants".


/rant

Shotsie...what are those workers who do all these govt. projects going to do when the govt. project is done?

Is the theory that if we can get them back to working via govt. contracts, they will now have income and spend and stimulate the economy which will in turn mean work for them down the line when the govt. work runs out?

That's my theory, although i'm no economist.:( Common sense tells me the more government workers you lay off, the less projects the government funds, the higher the rate of unemployment, and the less money you have flowing through the economy. It's a chain reaction, every part of the economy is interdependent.


If we started some government projects, say infrastructure, that would create a chain reaction of employment. Truck drivers, construction workers, manufacturers, building contractors, and all the goods and services they buy would help stimulate the economy.

How do you propose he gets unemployment down?

Gives you a tax cut and everyone earning your level and above?
Where does the money come from to fund the tax cut?
From the jobs created by people spending their own money?
Filling the loss of jobs to accommodate the lower Government income?

Odds are you'll spend the extra cash down the mall buying goods with a "Made Outside the US" label on them. Goods that the rich used to make in the USA and now having made in the PRC (Peoples Republic of China). Heard this morning Renault are cutting jobs in the EU and opening a plant in Brazil. To stimulate EU Economy, put more EU people into jobs? :upsidedow

That's just one of 1,000s of examples over the last few years.

Passing laws on making companies like www.flirt4free.com liable to be sued for earning from adverts on sites like intporn.com would help.

Making ultimately VISA responsible for allowing Paypal, then their bank, then VISA and advertisers on these sites, responsible for the damage caused by theft. Would be a god way to bring billions back into the US economy.

Much better to give you the money so you can buy something made in China. Your stance would be great, if you went out and spent you extra cash on products made only by US workers. As you'll be in the mall looking at shirts, electrical, household goods, etc all made outside the US. It's actually better to keep those on Government contracts working. They buy food.

This isn't a problem that will go away. The US needs to spend money on Education, Health and job creation in the US. Not give you a tax cut and borrow money to make up the difference or start another war.

Being a little older, things were different for me than they are now for younger people. I've had a job since I was 13 delivering papers, they don't have paper boys anymore, when I was 15 I worked in a fast food place, whens the last time you went into a fast food resturant and saw teenagers working? How many places have a walmart as the biggest employer of the town?
Business has moved off shore because they enjoy a better enviroment in other countries not having to deal with all the regulations progressive government have placed on them. I grew up in California, do you know what you have to go thru to open a business here? Do you think it's really nessesary?
Our cars have special smog requirements on them, yet we can farm our infrastructure to countries that have terrible polution records to save money? Really?

What the government does in this state makes so little sence and then we re elect governor moonbeam?

I actually have a BIG problem with the line of thinking that says money has to come from somewhere to "fund" a tax cut.

I tend to think of MY money as...MY money. The govt. shouldn't need to "fund" anything to keep their grubby thieving hands off of my money.

How about we pull our military back home out of the 200+ countries we have troops in? Bet that would "fund" me being able to keep my own damn money. :)

I posted about this in another thread. It doesn't matter how many tax cuts you give to "job creators", how loose you make the regulations. There's no competing with countries where manufacturing is completely unregulated in terms of polluting and destroying resources(no enviromental laws), exploiting workers(no labor laws), and no tax laws.


An 80¢/hr. factory worker in a plant in Xian Shaanxi Province is not improbable, but impossible to compete with today. The only thing to do is wait until his wages go up 400%(better hope they unionize over there and quick), and our buying power comes down 50%. At that point, when he is making about $2.80/hr, then and only then will domestic manufacturing begin to return, and thats in a scenario where some enterprising fool doesn't open a new plant in Burundi, Ethiopia, or the Democratic Republic of Congo.


The only thing to do would be to put some protectionist measures in place, which our government will never do at the moment. If things get bad enough they might. We cannot compete

Great idea. And you "Pay As You Go" for services that the Government provides for you. :thumbsup

So when you drive off your your driveway, you pay a toll, and the further you drive, the more it costs. This will cover the cost of building and maintaining the roads. Plus people like Highway Patrols, Paramedic and Firemen in case of violations and accidents. Plus the profit to make the shareholders of the companies happy.

And this will cover every single time you get something that today comes from the Government and local public services.

And you think that's cheaper?

And those who are out of work because of this won't be buying memberships to your sites. Well they won't be buying much at all, because welfare and jobs are slashed. Your payments to a security force to make sure these people don't sit in your living room, pointing guns at you, will be huge. Can you afford it?

If yes, then fine. If not YOU'RE FUCKED!!!

And yes let's bring all the troops home, make them unemployed. They will make great security forces to protect you from the soldiers who didn't get jobs.

Robbie your solution is simplistic. The solution is long term. And needs to be solved by people who have a clue. Not Vendzilla.

They moved because the workers rates were a fraction of what the workers in the US were paid. And yes deregulation. In countries like India, they love deregulations. Not those who have to live with the consequences.

Go sell less Government interference to these guys. Gulf of Mexico. I won't mention Enron.

The creation of this problem we face today started in the 60s. When cheap goods started to flood in from Japan, Hong Kong and a couple of other places. The answer to criticism was the West would provide the high tech stuff and other places cheap consumer goods.

The people selling this garbage, were idiots, con men or people looking after themselves first. China space program They couldn't feed themselves a couple of decades ago. Now they loan the US money to keep it afloat. And they have a space program. Seems the plan didn't go as it should of. :upsidedow

And China tells the US Government not to do that or they cut the funding of the loans. :Oh crap

Too late, that horse bolted 20 years ago. The US has to produce something in the US that sells to China. Stop parasites living off the work of US companies, by stealing their products, then advertising on sites giving away those products and then blaming others for the loss of jobs. Yes talking to you Vend. :321GFY

Other read this.

They make or assemble?

This problem is so big, the concept that GFY economists even understand the problem is mind blowing.

I'm out of this pointless debate.

NAFTA is a big problem and China somehow got most favored trade status from Clinton, China being known at the time for Tiananmen Square that happened just 10 years before. It should have never had happened.

this thread is

http://i.imgur.com/0VzRM.jpg

That line of reasoning is simply horse shit.

It doesn't take TRILLIONS of dollars to pay for a highway or firemen or policemen. Matter of fact in the 1990's President Clinton imposed a gasoline tax that we were told was going to be used for our highways. Of course just like all money... the federal govt. spent it on other shit and still does.

No Paul...paying for things our government is supposed to be doing wouldn't require people to pay much tax at all.

But our govt. taking money from it's own people to give to other countries in foreign aid? Or taking our money and waging wars against countries that did not attack us? Or spending billions on a failed "war on drugs"? Or how about spending millions of dollars on prosecuting baseball players for using steroids? Or the billions and billions in pork barrel spending?

The list goes on and on and on.

I would gladly pay taxes to have our govt. perform the basic functions it is SUPPOSED to do. That ain't what costs all the money.