I was answering his question not flashing "credentials" my man. You seem to take a lot of what I say to heart. You were bigger than me at 21 but you also didnt start as a 115lb twig with no muscle mass either. I'm not turning this into a competition between the both of us but you really have no room to talk anyone can say theyre bigger than someone else, im 5'7 and 185lbs @ 8% bf currently so of course if ur taller ur gunna weigh more. Not really gunna get all that much bigger due to genetic limitation you know? And arnold was on a diet of Dbol, proviron and testosterone, for months if not years on end. If you drank every night you would get liver damage too...its all relative, same can be said with asprin, oxys, and everything else. Also lets not get into the realm of how mentally addictive steroids are as well.

Yes and there are plenty of medical studies illustrating that testosterone deficiency in men is detrimental to their health and that by restoring optimal "natural" levels of the hormone reduces this danger.

A UK study showed that men with heart disease died sooner if they had low testosterone.

As for your dad, you, and your uncles... have you ever thought that perhaps you guys were just genetically gifted? Most old men aren't out fighting in bars. They're being old men.

Not because of food or the kind of job they work, because of genetic aging.

Steroids don't kill people, the idiots that take them kill themselves.

It doesn't matter what the drug is, taking too much is going to create side affects. It just happens that most bodybuilders don't know the meaning of "moderation".

Back to my thought about being mentally addictive...more more more...high doses of androgens usually amplify pre-existing mental conditions as well. Makes OCD worse, bi-polar, you name it. You really need to make sure you are in 100% good health before deciding to go the HRT route.

Is the over-use of roids the reason it's getting tougher and tougher to avoid aggressive douche-bag types?

Exactly. Testosterone gets a bad rep from abuse, not use, just like every other drug.

The vast majority of negative affects from T is a result of the body trying to get rid of excessive amounts of it.

The only thing we can blindly apply "more is better" to is money.

Quite sure you once said that too many fruits would kill you.....but steroids are ok?!?!? Lol. If I'm wrong I apologize but think it was you.

HAHAHAHAHAHA... Ok dude.. Believe that if you want... It's your body. :1orglaugh

It's just a shame you or some other guys taking this shit, hate yourself that badly to get on drugs. :2 cents:

You want to fuck your body? Ok, its your choice after all. I just say your body doesn't deserve to be fucked by your brain.. A shame your body can't say "no" to your CRUEL BRAIN.

Period.

man, what is your problem? Just do some research on google and quit attacking other people. Your ideas aren't correct or even close to fact. We've all cited stuff for you to look up and get educated. But you are apparently just wanting to troll and start shit.

Have fun. I hope you don't act that way in real life.

He also PLAINLY said several times that steroid abuse (like the abuse of ANYTHING) can kill you.
WTF?

Agree with you there.

It really makes no sense to compare to ARNOLD or LOU, saying that they are in their 60-70 and are in good health... Man, obviously these guys have no idea the millions ARNOLD SPENT in treatments to try to clean their bodies of all the shit they used, and still they could not clean completely...

Just look at the list of Bodybuilders (men and women) that die at a young age, between their 40's and 55's, due of a cause directly or indirectly linked to steroid use...

Its crazy how STEROID USERS try to find a reason to justify steroids and keep using them.

Steroids are clearly affecting their minds. The first symptom of a DRUG ADDICT is neglecting reality.

Period.

I tell you exactly the SAME, do some research to find the long term side IRREVERSIBLE effects of STEROIDS.

I think you are completely wrong.

What! LOL!!! If you watched Arnold's movies up until he became governor he was still heavily on steroids.

Are you just making stuff up as you go? lol

And why don't you give us a list of the bodybuilders who "die young"?

And also...do you not understand the difference between a bodybuilder using 1000's of times the amount that you should use and a normal person on testosterone replacement therapy from their doctor (tens of millions of men).

You sure are coming across aggressive in what was a discussion. If you believe what you say...then just never use testosterone when you get older.
And maybe you should go to the doctor NOW (if you are young) and have them try to get all the testosterone out of your body. :)

I know the side effects of steroid ABUSE. But you don't seem to be able to see the difference between your doctor prescribing you testosterone as you age...and a body builder abusing it everyday.

YOU are completely wrong.

what about zits?

Don't get so emotional and worried about what everyone else is doing. If you don't want to take steroids, then don't.

If you honestly don't realize (or refuse to believe) that your own body produces some of the same steroids that you are bitching about, you shouldn't even be in this conversation.

It's simple biology. The steroid testosterone (yes, the same testosterone bodybuilders use) is right there in the 4th row. Derived from precursor steroid hormones.... all coming from cholesterol.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks...idogenesis.gif

You know what? I dont fucking care if you want to fuck your own body...

You want to fuck your own body? GO AHEAD, I will not keep wasting my time to try to convince otherwise.

Go ahead and fuck it completely if you want, its your body after all.

Time will tell the truth.

Bye.

Hormone Replacement Therapy for women has been widely accepted for years, not only a better quality of life but it increased their life expectancy. Increased bone mass density for example reduces the risk of hip fractures sometimes the beginning of the end for older people..

TRT for men will go the same way, give it 10 years or so and every doctor will offer it to their over 50 patients :2 cents:

Okay. I'm 50 years old (51 in Nov.) I am extremely athletic. Can run like the wind. Lift heavy weights. Fuck all night long. Drink all night long. Work 14 hours a day without blinking.

I don't have a wrinkled face. My eyes are bright and clear. I run a 7 figure a year business with multiple revenue streams that I built myself and continue to run myself.

I'm not sure where you think I'm fucking myself? I feel great, think fast, and can out run, out fight, and out fuck most guys half my age. I've been using testosterone for over a decade now. I guess that takes out your "time will tell the truth" comment. As does "Dr. Life" who is now 73 years old and could whip your ass and fuck your woman.

I'm healthy as a horse and hardly ever get sick anymore. Everyone around me was dropping during the flu season. Not me.

You've been shown scientific evidence. You've been shown that doctors around the U.S. prescribe it to tens of millions of men (they don't have to prescribe it in other countries...you can just buy it over the counter like aspirin). You've been told by me and others that use it the benefits that they have seen.

And you STILL say that? It's like you're holding your hands over your ears and going "La-La-La-La" so you won't hear the truth.

I'm not sure why you're so vehement about guys replacing their lost testosterone as they age. But when you get a little older I hope you DON'T use testosterone. You're cock won't get hard, you will be a fat, soft, unhealthy little man that will live a short life with poor quality.

Enjoy!

actually HRT for women is as controversial as ever and they are now finding out that it wasn't as good as they thought it was and many women are getting off of it because they are realizing natural is better, many worries about side effects and dangers to health

Yep, I've read worries about that with estrogen replacement. It really comes down to risk management.

Is a woman better off being miserable and growing a mustache and losing her femininity? Or taking the very tiny (and as yet unproven) 1 or 2 percentage points greater than other women chance of contracting breast cancer.

If you really look at women's health...the number ONE killer is heart disease. That and cancer is predominantly brought on by lifestyle in addition to genetics. Smoking, eating fatty and processed foods are FAR more dangerous than estrogen replacement. And the benefits of estrogen replacement outweigh the tiny risks involved.

It's a question of risk management. Driving your car is the most dangerous thing any of us do on a daily basis. But we make the assessment that the quality of life we have by driving instead of riding a horse is great enough to nullify the very large risk of death or injury in a car accident.

By comparison...HRT is a speck of dust next to the mountain of risk that comes from driving your car.

You have to put aside the crazy extreme stories of bodybuilder steroid abuse and use your mind to make an intelligent decision for yourself.

EDIT: By the way "natural is better"? So you don't think you should have any kind of medical help if you have a heart attack? Surgery to correct that isn't "natural".
But the way I see it...replacing your NATURAL hormones that you have lost with age isn't unnatural at all. Living beyond your 30's is the part that isn't "natural" Would you rather us return to short life spans?
Of course not.

Robbie, I've always liked you but man, you are so afraid of getting/looking old. At least it sure seems like it. You don't want to hear any possible negatives. You even got Claudia doing it too.

Its so funny Robbie all these people are willing to take XYZ pill for their depression, high cholesterol, restless leg syndrome, and every other ailment under the sun. Meanwhile the FDA and Big Pharma pumps out all these drugs, doesnt test them as long as they need to and then a year later they are recalled. Do you think its really healthy to take a pill that magically makes Cholesterol go down? Do you know the mechanism on which it works? Didn't think so....then theres testosterone that has been around for 60+ years with tons of studies and published medical articles and people are arguing the safeness of it. Its a synthesized hormone to replace hormones your body no longer produces...If you guys wanna feel like crap at 45-50 go for it. You want to look wrinkly and have loose skin, be my guest. All I know is that right now im as healthy as can be and if I can feel like this in my later years I will without a doubt go on HRT.

How old are you now taking that stuff? You guys make it sound like a miracle so why isn't everyone on it? I think you'd be hard pressed to find an average doctor recommend taking it or even would prescribe it when asked for it. There is obviously tons of money to be made getting all guys over 40 on it, so why isn't it happening? And personally, i take no medications and never have, hopefully never will. I don't even take Tylenol or Advil.

Black, I'm not on HRT or Testosterone, I've stated that 2 or 3 times in the thread so far. I have a POLYGRAPHED Natural Bodybuilding competition in August, therefore I do not touch anabolics. All you really need to do is talk to your primary about it and they will usually prescribe, it is happening you just need to open your eyes to it. I too dont take any medicine/tylenol/advil unless absolutely necessary.

Not really. I've always looked good. :)

I just started FEELING like shit when I was 39 and went to the doctor and was told why and he put me on testosterone. If he had told me I had high blood pressure I would have went on high blood pressure medicine (I don't have high blood pressure by the way). Would that have meant I was "afraid" of getting old? lol

As for Claudia Marie...what is it that I have her "doing it too"? She's 13 years younger than me and doesn't have to worry about stuff like that. I'm sure that when her body goes through changes in 15 or 20 years that her physician will diagnose it at that time and tell her what to do.

Just like everybody esle.

The stuff I'm reading about NSAIDS (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) like advil scares the hell out of me. I had no idea that stuff would build in your system over the years and kill you.

But yeah, I'm the same way. When I was in a car accident in 2002 I had both arms and my neck broken badly. First the doctors didn't think I'd live. Then they thought I'd be paralyzed. But after a month in ICU I got out of the hospital and went home with a hard neck brace and two full length arm braces.

They also sent me home with a bottle of pain killers and 3 months worth of prescriptions.

I threw that shit in the toilet and went to the office and had one of my employees at the office do the typing for me while I told him exactly what to do! lol

My then-partner AL4A came over from his desk and was pretty amazed too.

It hurt like hell not to take the pain medication. But in my humble opinion...pain pills and sleeping pills are the new "heroin" of modern times. And I had been around enough pro wrestlers to know how easy it is to get addicted.

Anyway, BlackCrayon...you are right about that. Don't take ANYTHING unless you have to. If my body was still pumping testosterone like it did when I was 20 years old, I wouldn't even be thinking about it. But unfortunately, as we age, it slows down production to a point where it does no good.

I didn't want to get to that point. I don't do it to be a bodybuilder or look good. I do it for my health. The looking good and feeling great part is a very nice side effect that I do admit I love! :)

Dear God! That explains it all! Anybody who wants to have a nice quality of life is a narcissist! AND they will probably commit mass murder! OMG!!!! :1orglaugh

you know, you can be slim and sexy

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kJTQW0cVWe...eco/s640/2.jpg

(and narcissistic)

So I'm gonna end up being a grandpa twink? :1orglaugh

175 mg's twice a week of T-propinate will put you at 4:1 which is perfectly legal by the las vegas fight commision. I found that interesting. Basically a decent but moderate dose a gym rat would use is legal as far as levels go.
ds

Prop has a short life and yeah you'd have to use that twice a week to keep your test levels up. And as I found out the hard way...you need to mix it half and half with grapeseed oil. Otherwise it will burn your ass up.

Actually you would want to use Prop every day or every other day to ensure the most stable blood levels and minimal estrogenic side effects. Test E or C should be done 2x per week. And Robbie if ur prop is burning you should probably try a diff lab. It should be relatively painless unless its underground lab overdosed stuff.

I don't know anything about Las Vegas fight commission rules, but testosterone is tested as far as i know by testing for presence of the plant protein its derived from in your blood.

Why are you criticizing something you know absolutely nothing about? How many people take herpes medication? How many do you know? Stats show 1 in 5 to 1 in 6 people have herpes. So just because you never stop at an intersection and think "holy shit, i'm surrounded by VD" means it's less prevalent or less common? Why doesn't everyone stop smoking if its going to kill them some day? Why do people eat like assholes only to become obese and die of easily preventable disease? Why why why? Thats the logic and reasoning of a child.

The benefits of hormone replacement therapy are absolutely not disputed in the medical community or medical journals.

Dude, I've used prop from a lot of sources. Including doctor prescribed/pharmacy bought.

It ALL burns...and gives you test fever. The grapeseed oil counteracts that. Took me some research to find that out. But yeah...on most any bodybuilder forum you'll find that prop will give you a big red hot spot where you injected and nice low grade 99 degree fever for a day, UNLESS you dilute it half/half with grapeseed oil.
It's not a big deal to do. And I love the effects of prop.

Just don't want to inject constantly. So I use a mix of tests all in one that includes propianate. But I'm not trying to be a bodybuilder or anything. Just trying to stay healthy.

Test flu is due to unstable blood levels, aka pinning not as frequently as u should. Testosterone is suspended usually in grapeseed oil as it is and if ur adding it to ur shots i hope youre filtering it and sterilizing it before hand. If youre using a test blend (sust im assuming) especially one with prop u should be hitting it every other day or every day. I have many friends on prop and none of them experience pain or test flu and they are on a lot higher doses than an HRT user 700mg+ per week

Reasons for test flu :

1. Lowered immune system
2. Bacterial infection
3. Allergy to benzyl alcohol
4. Unstable bloods (estrogen spikes)
5. High blood pressure

You dont pin your prop frequently enough and ur wasting the short esters of ur sust by only pinning 2x a week. Duno why anyone would take a test blend while on HRT, total waste. U should be on Test C or D

You missed one of the reasons for test fever:
Not using grapeseed oil when you shoot.

lol

As I said...I don't use prop by itself because I don't want to do it every day. I use a nice mixture. And I use half/half with grapeseed oil. And of course, I bought the grapeseed oil from a company that filters and sterilizes it just for that purpose.

Trust me brother...I have some good advice and lots of experience over the last decade plus.

Im not questioning it. I just have plenty of gym rat friends who are currently on prop and experience no pain and no test flu at triple your doses. Not everyone gets test flu or injection pain. Everyone is different and none of them add any oil to their shots. 100mg per ML/CC. The actual test flu u are talking about is due to a hormone imbalance...by diluting ur shot with more oil all ur doing is making it less painless, not absorbed any slower.