And the first political campaign I ever volunteered for was for Guy Molinari.Most here would probably know his daughter Susan. He was a republican.

During the Reagan years it cost Adam and Eve over 1 million dollars in legal billls fighting Meese.

I was gonna point that out too but, figured I had to pick a line to discuss. But yup, anyone who wants to know what it was like for workers in America before labor unions, here's your read, if you didn't already read it in high school:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Grapes-Wra...rapes+of+wrath

Unions created the middle class. That way of life didn't really exist in America before them.

Here you go
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-medicare-cut/

Of course you're absolutely right about this.

And now, when one rich fuck like sheldon adelson can pump $50 Million into campaigns - an amount that would take 500,000 'average' folk donating $100 to equal. think about that for a sec - you're officially living in a plutocracy.

A great movie

Henry Fonda a great line: "Whenever they's a fight so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Whenever they's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there... I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad an'-I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry an' they know supper's ready. An' when our folks eat the stuff they raise an' live in the houses they build-why, I'll be there."
also they can read about the triangle waist shirt fire. None of those job stopping regulations.

Interesting thing about the 50's and 60's, - by any measure the time of greatest American prosperity - the highest marginal tax rates were between 70-91%.

I bring that up because of the biggest economic lie of the last 30 years, trickle-down/supply-side economics. The general idea is that high tax rates stifle potential employers from starting businesses, hiring people and generally growing their businesses.

Sky-high tax rates certainly didn't hamper us during our heyday, and we now have 30 years of data that shows 'trickle-down' to be so much bullshit.

Yep and you had public college that was free. Andy Grove came out of public college. We had one of the greatest school systems in the world. During trickle down, debt became cheap and easy. So it gave people the illusion of having more when wages have been flat for 30 yrs. In real dollars a man college educated in his 30's makes less now than he did in 1982.

And there is not a millionaire in the U.S. who actually PAID 70 to 91% of their money to the govt.
Not one. They all used every trick in the book and probably paid less taxes than the millionaires of today (technology wasn't around to catch them as easily back then)

I can't even begin to wrap my head around the 39% tax rate that is being proposed.

Can you?

Can you actually imagine making ONE MILLION dollars this year and then taking no deductions and actually writing a check for $390,000.00 to the U.S. govt. to use to bomb another country?

That's $390,000.00 you COULD have spent on your own family. I can't even imagine it.

And the only reason that the American people aren't outraged is because of the payroll tax. They never even SEE their money so they don't miss it. Then they get a "tax refund" at the end of the year and think it's the greatest thing ever.

Those of us who pay a check every quarter to the feds know better.

Public college that was free? Where? I've never heard of any college that was free.

but it started at a higher number so they paid less but not 13 % like old mitt

you are too young.http://college.monster.com/news/arti...llege-was-free
The one in CA Reagan got killed.

I love this graph cause I think it says all you need to know about what's happened in America the last few decades, especially the last one:

http://irregulartimes.com/wp-content...1967to2008.png

I went to San Antonio last weekend and took my kid to the Riverwalk area. They have these canal boars for tourists, so I took him on it. Was like between $20 - $30 for the two of us. OK, fine. Watched the movie "Cloak & Dagger" with him last night, which came out when I was a kid in the 1980's... it takes place in San Antonio. There's a scene on that same boat ride in the movie, and in the 80's it was apparently $1.00 for adults and $.50 for kids to ride then. So... for anyone not in the top 20%, your annual income hasn't gone up much if anything since 1980's but your cost for everything else is through the roof.

Of course the graph is in 2008 dollars, which has to be factored in here, but pretty sure a 1985 dollar wasn't like what 20 times less valuable than a 2008 dollar.

No, you just think I'm "right" leaning because you are very left leaning. So everything that isn't way over left seems "right" to you.

As for my union comment...yes, a hundred years ago unions were definitely needed. And they are still needed today. But like all bureaucracies, they have gone too far in my opinion.

For instance...govt. "unions". They weren't even LEGAL until Johnson.
FDR even warned against EVER allowing govt. workers to unionize.

Why are they unionized? I thought the federal govt. was all benevolent and great according to democrats? Would the feds suddenly become a sweat shop and dangerous work environment?

And how can anybody justify taking tax dollars and giving govt. employees big paychecks and "benefits"?

It's just insane in my opinion. The govt. should get and spend just enough money to efficiently do the work of the people. Nothing more, nothing less.

Instead it's a huge bloated monster that just keeps growing and growing.

When they talk of "cuts" it isn't what us normal people think of when we say we have to cut something.
For them it means INCREASING the amount of spending a little less than what they had originally planned on INCREASING it!

It's like a bizarro-world and it would be funny except they are stealing money from all of us to do it.

I'm 50 years old. I lived down south and didn't ever know of any free colleges. NEVER heard of one.

And if Reagan got it "killed" it's for a great reason...the govt. has no business being in the academic world. None.

How do you know that? I don't know that. But an intelligent person could easily figure out that with no electronic data you could hide money all day long.

Also...since there was NO federal income tax until 1913 I took a look.

It appears that the all time high rates were only for a few years during WWI and WWII.

After WWI the rate went down to 25%.

It jumped back up during WWII and then stayed high all the way through the Cold War.

You seeing the pattern? It's ALWAYS military spending.

Let's cut the goddamn military and bring our troops back home from every base. We haven't been invaded since the War of 1812. WE are the ones who are doing the invading these last few decades.

I'm telling you Tony...we are overtaxed and it's not for building roads and helping people. It's for war.

One other thing Tony...the tax rate you are quoting for Romney is the money he makes on Capital gains.

A LOT of people make money on capital gains. Including retirees, etc.

Are you suggesting that the capital gains tax should be raised to make sure that people like "mittens" will have to pay more taxes?

And if so...why? Why would you or any sane person ever want anybody else to have to pay more taxes? Especially capital gains taxes?

That really would put a big slam on what's left of the economy. The govt. already taxes the fuck out of your savings. So nobody does that anymore.
Once they tax the hell out of investments...that too will go down the tube.

Talk about the end of the middle class. When all investment leaves the U.S. for greener pastures that would pretty much do it.

Actually isnt growing. its strunk under obama. And unions are needed now more than ever.No benefits, workers treated like shit. One Walmart store costs the tax payers over 400k in gov services the under paid employees use. Yep Im extreme left when I voted for two republicans and george bush the first time. What I do know who buys memberships its the middle class and they are getting screwed. And if you think no unions and less regulations and no taxes for rich people is the answer you are kidding yourself.
Also about free college, yeah its better for a kid to go to state school and leave for 60k in debt.

Where they going to go? They went no where during Clinton or during the 50's and 60's. This is still one of the most solid places in the world.

I agree about the war and did you know this is the first time they lowered taxes during war time. The only war also without a war tax in modern time. Also look at what life was like for regular people around 1900, no education, old age was starvation good times

You can't really think that. American pioneered the public school approach, which brought education to all income levels. That's one of our signature accomplishments as a nation.

Our public universities are the best in the world, which is why people come here from all over the world to go to college.

We need skilled labor force... we can't just tell the most talented amongst us that they should dig ditches because they can't afford Harvard or Stanford. That would be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Not to mention the EXTREMELY VALUABLE RESEARCH that comes out of public universities, research that private industry USES when crafting new technologies.

Connor people really dont know the history of this country.
Andrew Stephen ("Andy") Grove (born 2 September 1936), is a Hungarian-born American businessman, engineer, and author. He is a science pioneer in the semiconductor industry. He escaped from Communist-controlled Hungary at the age of 20 and moved to the United States where he finished his education. He later became CEO of Intel Corporation and helped transform the company into the world's largest manufacturer of semiconductors. Andy went to City College in NY that was free.

Nope, that would be the Aztecs, the Greeks, and in more "modern" times...the Germans (Strausberg in 1596)

Hardly an idea that our relatively "new" country came up with.

If you really think our educational system is so great, I have to totally disagree with you. It works, I'll give you that. But it's geared to the lowest common denominator levels and we get our asses smoked by a lot of other countries education systems.

Agreed... I mean, if they want to take their ball and go to China... SEE YA, don't let the red, white and blue door hit you on the ass on the way out. ;)

There's some GREAT places to live in Europe, but they're not generally better for business purposes, taxes, etc. No advantage there.

We're still the world's number 1 economy until China passes us and, can't imagine living under that government's rule.

Yeah...except I love history and made straight A's through school and later straight A's in Western Civ in college.

I'm not a historian. But I know enough to handle myself during a GFY debate. lol

Connor, they are already taking their ball and going.

I watched GE on the news showing off their big plant in Brazil...it's the biggest plant making jet engines in the world.
You know, the same GE that are buddies with the current administration and paid ZERO taxes last year?

It's been happening all around us.

Why wouldn't we want to make the U.S. the number one place to do business in the world?

I'm at a loss as to why we wouldn't want that. Those jobs should be HERE. Not in Brazil.

It wasnt like that before taxes are the lowest they have been in a long long time. Taxes get lowered education gets chopped and they talk about what about our kids future.

Well a couple of things....

1) I think our LOWER level educational system has a lot of problems, some places worse than others, and lots of other nations now have better public school systems at the lower levels than ours, but I would not trade it for a private school only approach ever. (I went to a private school for high school by the way and it was great, but it was also expensive and that's WHY it was great... I also went to a private school in second grade that was a religious private school and it was hell on earth.)

2) Now when you talk about HIGHER education, college, we ARE the best in the world. Period.

3) Just cause the Greeks and others had some forms of public education doesn't mean they had the kind of public education system that we pioneered. Ours was different and FAR more comprehensive.

Here in 1900 to 1999
https://www.msu.edu/~bsilver/pls440century.html
Education

¶ At the beginning -- and even in the middle -- of the century, high school diplomas were rare, indeed. Back in 1900, for instance, only 6 percent of 17-year-olds graduated from high school. By 1940, 25 percent of people age 25 and over had at least a high school diploma. Today, a diploma is the rule rather than the exception: 83 percent of people age 25 and over had at least a high school diploma in 1998.

¶ The number of degrees conferred by the nation's colleges and universities now is more than 70 times higher than it was at the century's start: fewer than 30,000 were awarded in the 1899-1900 school year, compared with 2.2 mil. in 1995-1996.

Plus, the grand scheme from the privatization crowd is to damage public education by defunding it. Then people will scream for private schools, and guys like Mitt can make bank by setting up their schools everywhere. Schools that are free to preach religious dogma too, by the way.

Same shit they did with the post office... passed laws they knew would bankrupt it and, even though it costs taxpayers NOTHING (yes that's right the post office was always self sufficient before Congress fucked it up) they are killing it so FedEx and UPS will be our only options soon. FedEx is sharpening their anal probe pricing tools right now for when you can no longer go to the Post Office. ;)

Amen Brother.

I wish you guys would quit making me defend some of the right's positions. LOL

I don't agree with them either.

I don't know how "comprehensive" the ancient Greek educational system was. But I do know that they are the basis of our entire Western Civilization and our philosophical way of thinking. So I'm gonna say: it was BETTER.
The results certainly were. lol

As for best higher education in the world...I don't know.
Is Harvard really better than Oxford? Clinton didn't seem to think so. And he's one of the smartest presidents of my lifetime.

And I agree on private school. I hated it. Went for one semester in 3rd grade. They were so far advanced over me that I felt totally inadequate. I was a straight "A" student in public school. But a moron in private. :(

Tony, I have two kids. One graduated last year. The other is 15 and in high school. If you saw how low the standards are now you would laugh.
I swear to God we did more advanced stuff in 5th grade than they are doing in 10th grade.

They have lowered the standards down now to where you basically have to have severe retardation to NOT get a high school diploma. It's outrageous.

I guess it's all tied in to getting funding. They have to meet a certain criteria to get money. So they just keep dumbing shit down to get better ratios of "success".
That's why our kids aren't learning shit and get left in the dust by the Japanese.

This thread needs some skin.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7...09vpo1_500.jpg

Give it a rest man, the sheep will never fucking snap out of it, they love playing these pointless games every 4 years...

Robbie, first off, i'm not hassling you. Just want to get that out of the way.

I agree with half your statement. I don't believe for a second that we're overtaxed. See my previous post about tax rates in the '50s and '60s.

However, I agree 100% that our allocation of resources is completely out of whack, especially when it comes to war. These wars we are in are completely for money. Money for corporations.

The defense budget is about $900 Billion a year. About $180bil is for the VA, so let's leave that out. That leaves $720bil to fund 2 wars started under false pretenses. Let's cut that number in half. $360bil/year would still leave us with an incredibly strong military.

Can you all imagine the great things we could do here at home with the other $360bil/year??? As you say, roads, helping people etc. I'll add education to that as our educational system has been consistently gutted over the last 30 years. Without the H1B visa program, our lead in science would be gone overnight because our own kids have been getting a progessively sub-par education for a generation.

Agreed. Though I think he'd probably be a lot more progressive if it weren't for the political realities of the job. It's possible he'll be more progressive in his second term, I think. And you're dead right about the SCOTUS nominations.

If I am not mistaken...and I may be...the average life span was 40 at the turn of the 20th century.

Yep. The taxpayers subsidize fucking WalMart's payroll. They don't pay their employees enough to feed their kids. The health benefits suck, if they offer them at all. Sooooo, WE THE PEOPLE feed their children, and pay for their emergency room care - all while WalMart's profits are in the billions! It's CORPORATE WELFARE!!!

Close, about 47.

Thanks for the link!

These political debates are like sweet n sour candy. lol

It's fun yet frustrating at the same time.

Reality is...we all have our minds made up. We've seen what we've seen. Lived through what we've lived. And formed our opinions.

The only thing that is incredulous to me is the percentage of people the media tell us truly haven't made up their minds.

It just seems impossible that anyone who doesn't live under a rock could not have an opinion and a decision made on who to vote for. I suspect that the folks who claim that when asked just don't want to tell what they think.

Anyway, as I said...this debate is both fun and frustrating. Kinda like my sex life. lol

Im glad it kept going after I went to bed. But you are right its fun.Back in the day this used to happen around the sunday dinner table at my grandmothers house. And we are more civil here. lol I was kid and they would scream and call each others names and then at the end of the night hug and kiss each other goodnight.That used to amaze me lol.

The Tampa Bay Times?!? Seriously.... :1orglaugh

I know facts are boring.

Quotes from the liberal kool-aid is boring! :1orglaugh

if you can't refute the facts, kill the messenger. lame.

Pretty sure when an elephant pisses on some people they do believe that it is rain.
Others it's the donkey. Just so I'm not playing favorites.

Sometimes 1 plus 1 really does equal 2 though. But where?

Then I am sure that you would have no problem if I quoted everything from Fox News as fact right? :winkwink:

100 lies

Hey, if you (or anyone else) like to live in fantasy land, that's your call ;)

Just so you know, the source we're talking about is Politifact, an independent, pulitzer-prize winning organization that fact-checks statements made by political figures & others.

Their 'pants on fire' section is particularly fun: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...gs/pants-fire/

and fyi, other major news sources including the Washington Post have also called bullshit on this one.