The further away from Darwinism we get, the worse of society as a whole gets

I was him.

Sure, jackass.

Brazil had one of the worst distributions in the world. Once they solved that and made it possible to move up in the world, the country boomed. Japan and Korea are examples of this.

A certain percentage will drink but you maybe have not travelled much. There are situations that are pretty hard to climb out of. The % that can is smaller as the mountain is higher. So making it a little harder can still change the opportunity level for some. Subsidized housing and pell grants can make a difference to some people. It is not productive for the rich to pay less then others just so we have role models.

Not sure if we have met but I know we know some of the same people.

I've traveled a bit over the years outside the U.S.

But again...I wasn't talking about other countries. I was talking about the U.S.A. in my reply.

Trying to "redistribute wealth" in the U.S. is a recipe for disaster.

I want to EARN my way.

I don't really care one bit if a handful of people are somehow making billions of dollars. All I care about is what I did today to move myself forward.

The U.S. still has ample opportunity for people from all walks of life to make it.
Problem is for most folks...they squander any and every opportunity when they are young. Then they find themselves middle aged with no options left.

It the U.S. has a problem with upward mobility, it's NOT the fault of the ones who are at the top. It's the society we live in that is teaching them to be slackers.

When I'm hungry for something is when I bust ass and really achieve. That is what's lacking in our society today. And it's getting worse as our politicians hand out more and more govt. aid to everyone.

Here's a fun fact for you.

Henry Ford used to pay his workers $5 a day, that was 1 and a quarter of an ounce of gold, the equivalent of $2500/week.

So Ford's entry level factory workers were making the equivalent of $2500/week, they paid no income taxes and there was no union.

America paid the highest wages in the world but made the best quality, least expensive products.

How is that possible? Because the government was small, there was low taxation and no regulations.

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-cont...DP-History.gif

Between 1800 and 1913 an independent America became the richest country in the world and there was a civil war in the middle of that when the Confederacy split which ravaged the country and left a good chunk of working men dead or injured.

No Income tax, no Federal Reserve and no stinking unions.

when i look at someone like bill gates, who could easily give me a million bucks and make my life perfect. i dont think this is some greedy scumbag as a lot of people have. I think, i should have put more effort into making his kind of money. I dont have the passion to do it, so i wont do it and i accept that.

I understand that i may not even have the ability, the genes, the intellectual ability to do what he did. I also look at the impact this guys product has had on society which I would think is worth more money than he actually has.

regular people are just a bunch of cave men, out for their own. if youre not making money, youre not doing whats needed. youre not doing whats good, or wanted by society. its as simple as that. I just dont understand how most people think theyre owed something just for existing

"In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure."

Agreed.

True dat.

There is endless opportunity out there. You simply have to want it bad enough, and willing to put your balls on the line to get it. However, that takes some level of drive, ambition, and working every day to get it. Which is something most do not have. The stench of entitlement is everywhere in society now-a-days.

Correct. Some people are just not cut out to be a business owner. There are plenty of examples on GFY daily.

:2 cents:

That is a false narrative propped up by Fox News. I don't know a single person who feels Bill Gates or Steve Jobs were overpaid. I don't know anyone who feels they are 'entitled' to be wealthy. I don't know anyone who expects to be handed a private jet or a luxury box at a football game.

Now let's look at the much more realistic narrative. A kid born to a couple poor parents is likely raised by one or neither of them while they both work full time jobs. He goes to a subpar public school in a poor community and puts up with gang violence and a culture of educational apathy. If he wants to work hard and get a job, there likely are few or none available for him anywhere within his potential commuting distance. If he has the grades to get into college he has no life experience to prepare him for it, no support system to help him through it, no financial cushion and is immediately saddled with more student debt than he can possibly repay. Now he graduates into the worst job market in decades and finds he is unable to get a job that pays more than his basic living expenses cost. His chances of eventually climbing slightly out of that are very small... his chances of climbing far out of that are even smaller. Conversely, there are plenty of people in this country who have never worked a single day in their lives. They are living on trust fund accounts and pay 0 taxes on their income because it is 'invested' in tax free assets or schemes designed to utilize loopholes. 100 Million dollars in US Treasury bonds goes quite a long way... generation after generation.

The idea that all people who are poor are the same or that all people who are wealthy are the same is ridiculous. Hard working rich people and hard working poor people have much more in common with each other than they have in common with the small fraction of people who are idle rich or idle poor. Now, does that mean the hard working poor kid should be given a luxury condo for nothing, or that the wealthy trustfunder should have their luxury condo taken away? No. And I don't know a single person who believes that would make any sense. However, it does mean we ought to provide *basic* subsistence level services for poor people and we should have a minimum tax (the Warren Buffet rule) for people who have been opting out of the tax system for generations already or using loopholes like carried interest to avoid their tax liabilities.

Put simply, not a single person in the United States should be hungry. We subsidize the food industry and they rake in billions of dollars in profits while many people are unable to get access to nutritious food. It would cost virtually zero to make canned vegetables available for free to poor people. Nobody should be saddled with so much student debt that they can't climb out of the hole in a world where most are told without a college degree they don't qualify to be interviewed. Nobody should be without basic healthcare including wellness visits, prenatal care and similarly vital but non-emergent care.

We live in a country that produces much more than it requires. We ought to make the bare minimums free for people who earn no more than that. And we ought to be happy when a wealthy person does something stupendous or when a poor person has a roof over their head. Poor people need wealthy people and contrary to some views, wealthy people need poor people. When that symbiosis is working well the middle class expands, when it is broken the middle class contracts.

Bill Gates should be able to make a Trillion dollars and Larry Elison should continue being able to buy entire Hawaiian islands. Nobody I know is against that and nobody I know thinks they are 'entitled' to anything more than basic subsistence for free. Whether society benefits more from a trustfunder getting another $6,000 handbag with tax free 'investment income' or by feeding a few thousand kids fresh vegetables is more along the lines of what needs to be addressed.

The simple answer is a National Sales Tax. Cut the income tax significantly (down to 10 or 12%) and make it a flat rate on all income earned over $50,000 - paid exactly the same by everyone. Then add a 2-3% sales tax on all purchases with a short list of excluded items (basic food, basic clothing, heating oil, etc etc). It makes much more sense to tax what people buy than what they earn. The tax would also hit those who are in a position to spend, rather than those trying to save. :2 cents:

And??????

Is this person's fingers broken? Can they not read the internet and make money the same as many mainstream and adult webmasters? Not everything online requires you have hundreds or thousands of dollars to get started. Sure, you're going to trade off your hours in free labor for the cash you do not have. But it can be done.

I am sure he can be just as unhappy peddling porn as he would working at McDonalds or working a paper route. The point is, there IS OPPORTUNITY. Many simply see it as "beneath them" or assume because they have government hand outs, they have a "choice" on whether they would like to contribute to their own well being and society.

Right here is where you run off the rails champ. He is getting government hand outs in guaranteed financial aid. At what point does the gravy train end, and it fall on to them as an individual to carry their own weight??

The government is supposed to give them guaranteed financial aid, and the opportunity to better themselves, plus give them a well paying job, pension, health benefits, etc.? All at the compliments of the tax payer? When does YOUR RESPONSIBILITY in life actually kick in?

When I was in college, I was taking 18 credit hours a semester, working at the mall 30 hours/week, as well as station manager at the college radio and all of the responsibilities that came with it, plus holding down two DJ shifts. Which looking back, I have no idea how I managed it all and remained sane, but I had to do it as it was not a choice. No thinking involved. I wanted to make sure I did not have to ever work manual labor, and would have a better opportunity after college.

He can self teach himself design, html, and shit of that nature just like I did when getting started. You have to WANT to learn, and spend the time doing it. Trial and error, refining, and so forth. Again.... at what point does the responsibility to CARRY YOUR OWN WEIGHT start exactly? Once you have your cushy job, pension, health benefits? Or at that point, you will still want some additional hand outs before paying back into the system. It is never ending.

Wrong again toots. However the money was made the FIRST TIME it was taxed. Meaning, if their father made it, or they made it, whatever took place to make the "trust fund" in the first place. The money was taxed at the time of creation. The government shouldn't be able to tax, and tax, and tax some more that same exact money 10 different times just because it was passed down.

As for the tax rate, you said everything over $50,000.00 taxed and it would be everyone paying. Sorry sport.... That is not everyone paying into the system. That is once again only 'some' paying into the system. When I say a flat tax and EVERYONE is paying their FAIR SHARE, that means whether you're at $25,000.00 or 25 million you're taxed at the same 15%.

:disgust

I bought windows 3.1 it didnt work properly
I bought windows 95, 98, XP they didn't work properly

They could have been made better but it would have cost money.

They could have been sold cheaper.

Bill Gates got far too much money for a substandard product and monopoly control of the market.

Additionally all government jobs should be capped at $50,000.00 a year (allowing for cost of living adjustment for New York, L.A., or higher income cities as most major corporations do) if they still want their life time pensions, union, job security, benefits, etc..

The government sector should not be getting lifetime benefits for 20 years of service at some menial civil service job like the post office, secretary of state, or alike when the private sector jobs do not offer this any longer. Working for the government gives you a lot of things that most private sector jobs would LOVE to have, but do not any longer.

I do not see most of these jobs as any more complicated (often times less, with better working conditions) than working on a factory line at Ford, or G.M.. If people are all gung ho about no union, cutting their salaries, healthcare, pensions and taking away benefits in the private sector. They should have no compunction about taking them away from the government workers as well.

:2 cents:

who would be gung ho about that besides those who would profit from it?

its not perfect. but i run bsd server, ran linux many times, and still stick with windows. it works fine. 95, 98, xp, for their time worked fine. FOR THEIR TIME. how many jobs has the guy provided and how many does it still provide. hospitals run on his shit

o but you didnt know how to open mspaint. it sucks! it was like $100 thats bullshit. you paid $100 and made how much doing what ever you do in the industry

The fallacy perpetuated by politicians that the middle class is suffering is laughable.

The main reason we see people willing to tax the rich is that they have had their tax rates lowered for the past 40 years. Then add in the banking fiasco and people are more willing to bun the rich at the stake. I don't see where anyone suggested taxing unrealized capital gains.
The US is piling up huge debts. You can't keep cutting tax rates and spending more. We need to spend less and tax more. There is no other way. Interest payments are lower then they were in 2001 thanks to lower rates and we had a surplus then. Since then we have lowered rates on the rich(Bush temporary cuts) and spending is out of control.

You're deluded. Everyone's tax rates have gone down and 47% pay zero income tax.
The rabble should be kissing the ass of every so called rich person they can find. The rich are overpaying so the poor can live income tax free.

I disagree and apparently so does the current administration. They offered next to nothing in spending cuts. I do hope that Obama and his group are a whole lot smarter than I am. If they aren't the country is in for a serious crash.

I don't see how anyone can think you can continue to spend more than you earn. But again, there might be some secret formula that I am not aware of.

theres no excuse for being taxed as much as we already are being taxed. this comparison between the middle class and the rich means nothing. just look at where the moneys going, its being thrown around by people who havent worked for it. thats easy.

The military needs to be cut to the bone.

Common sense is not so common.

It must be the best kept secret in Washington.

It's easy to spend frivolously when it's not YOUR MONEY in the first place.

People continue to focus 99% of their attention on the expiration of the temporary bush tax cuts and 1% of their attention on where the money is being spent, how it can be spent more efficiently, where it can be cut, and where significant problems in the tax code exist.

The guy working to earn millions of dollars by producing things that benefit society while employing people at a living wage is overtaxed. The guy living off a trust fund with the identical income level or using carried interest to bring his rate down to 12-15% is not being overtaxed. The exact same can be said of working poor people living in destitute conditions as compared to lazy freeloaders. Their income level is not a sufficient data point all on its own to tell you much of anything.

The only solutions to that problem are a flat tax and a national sales tax. Any discussion of 'what the percentage rates should be' is meaningless when so few people pay the actual rate being stated... and even 100% tax on everyone wouldn't be sufficient revenue if spending is left out of the equation.

We ought to be discussing the measures needed to get everyone playing by the same rules, what those rules should be, and how we can provide what is needed in the most cost efficient way possible. Changing a few rates in the tax code fixes nothing, whether you raise them or lower them. It ought to be a 3 page document.

Instead the dialogue is all about suggesting that 'poor people could just become wealthy by working to the limit of their capabilities' - when we all know if they had the capacity to do that, they already would have.

Quick Question...

Anyone here opposed to a National Sales Tax and significantly lower Income Tax rates?

If there is a valid reason against it, I'd like to know...

i kinda sorta agree with what youre proposing, but its based on the idea that the government is competent in managing this money. ideally it makes sense, but it doesnt make sense realistically. the government cant do this, which has been proven to be the case as long as this country has been alive, and is pretty much the reason this country was born. we're now back to our old (failing) ways

Everyone can't become wealthy. The world needs ditch-diggers too.
However, when you travel around the world and see how many/most of the population lives it becomes obvious that US citizens on the bottom of the ladder live significantly better than most everyone on earth.

I am sure I will regret typing this, but even western Europe. The majority of people live stacked up in tiny apartments. They drive tiny cars on tiny roads. They eat good..
But it takes large amounts of cash there to live in homes the middle class here have.

uh huh. everything is black and white, light and dark. there are no in-betweens. if you actually believe that BS, i would have to assume you severely lack friends and don't know many kinds of people outside of your little circle.

The primary difference between yourself and many others here and myself, is that I don't lay blame elsewhere for any failure or mediocrity on my part. My successes and failures are my own. I own them. Most here do not. Their income and loud complaints, and blame reflect that fact.

I understand the language is something you can't relate to.

As the guy said in Rounders "If you can't spot the sucker in your first half-hour at the table, then its you". But its ok, as was pointed out, the world needs ditch diggers, taxi drivers and dog walkers. Not everyone can be an astronaut... although, we live in a nation where everyone at least has the right to try.

1000s of excuses....

they dont know how to help their country, are afraid to, or are aren't allowed to. The success of the US comes from the mindset. we're not special in any way. history shaped us into people who learned their lesson from the british empire. and its passed on, but its seen as ignorance by people living in projects in western europe for some reason. people in western europe dont have that kind of motivation but are totally capable of it

or eastern europe

The terminally poor NEVER will become "wealthy" or anything but "poor".

They never move up. And it has nothing to do with what govt. can or can't do about it. You can throw money at it all day long and it won't change a thing...matter of fact we have spent trillions of dollars over the last few decades on the "War On Poverty"

About the same results as "The War On Drugs" :(

You're right (finally)...we should be cutting what govt. spends. They are a bunch of greedy crooks spending more in one day than most mega companies profit in a year.

your constant need to make yourself look important is sad and quite telling of the person you really are. i don't lay blame for myself to anyone or anything. you have no idea what kind of success of failure i've had. you just assume by my position. you see the real difference is i know all kinds of people, from the very success to the very poor. some great people and some real losers on both sides. your view of the world is so simple, i don't know how you can actually believe it to be true. i do i feel i pay too much taxes, yeah. did i ever say the rich should pay more? no. i just take issue with your vast generalizations.

I don't think i'm important. I'm not a very secure person and don't really have a strong and positive self image. I do think i'm better than many in this conversation and better than those most of those around me in every day life. Big difference.

I don't run around shouting it from the rooftops. I quietly work. Quietly build. And quietly love and enjoy the important people in my life and things that are important to me.

But I suppose I do think i'm better than many here. I'm better because I don't blame anyone but myself for my failure. I don't demand the government take care of me as I lose the house I couldn't afford to begin with. I'm better because I don't blame rich people for anything. I'm better because I don't envy success. I'm better because I don't care how many billions Bill Gates has and I genuinely wish him luck and continued success and admire those who spent decades working 80hr+ work weeks to build empires.

I'm better because I don't believe in saying or believing something as stupid/subjective/ambiguous as "the rich need to pay their fair share" which is nothing more than saying "punish people who are better than me because they make me ashamed to be me". After all, "fair share" is never defined, so "fair share" isn't the issue. There is no specific objective as much as it serves as a rallying cry for losers.

I'm better because I don't blame external factors for my failures. I'm better because I was never given a participation trophy in school. I'm better because I was never taught that I was special as kids are these days. I'm better because I ran away from home at 16 and quickly learned that the world is not a great place or a miserable place... I'm better because I learned quickly that the world is exactly what you make it for yourself.

I'm better because I looked at those who were successful and tried to understand them and tried to understand their success. I'm better because it never occurred to me to think "well, he must have stole it or inherited it" as so many here do. I'm better because I looked at the guy with the nice car and thought "i want that too"... it never occurred to me to think "fuck him, who'd he rip off to get that".

I have a great deal of disdain for those who blame more successful people for their mediocrity, apathy, or anger, frustration and sense of personal shame at their lack of success.

Working hard and improving yourself isn't the plan anymore in this country. Instead it's "who's to blame". To me, that's no different than hating Kobe Bryant for being a better basketball player. It helps no one other than give the individual an excuse or rationalization for both failure and mediocrity.

I don't hate Walmart greeters
I don't think i'm more important than Walmart greeters
I don't have any disrespect for Walmart greeters
I think i'm better than Walmart greeters who blame me for their station in life, for their misery and for their failures.
If you are a happy Walmart greeter that just wants everyone to be happy.. then I think you're awesome and I want to get to know you.

The second you look outside yourself for answers to "why",... "why did my business tank", "why did i lose the game", "why is he making 600k a year and i'm making 50k a year",... you've lost. That is what the tax discussion is.

I'm better because I have the strength of character to lay blame for everything in my life where it belongs... at my own two feet.

Oh... and I'm sure you're a closet billionaire. Everyone here is.

Your point seems to be 'the poor live well enough.' Many would argue 'the wealthy live well enough.' I don't think those are very useful statements. My point is that both can live much better if we focus on efficiency and growing the pie - and that there is no difference between many poor people who collect food stamps and many trustfunders who collect interest on their inheritances, except for the dollar amounts involved.

You and I have discussed these topics for close to 5 years now, and I think we are fairly close to seeing eye to eye on the issues involved. If the following proposal was on the table... would you agree to it? I would.

1 - All income tax at a reduced flat rate across the board for all citizens on every dollar earned over $50,000.00

2 - A sales tax of 2-3% on all purchases with a short list of excluded necessities (basic food, heating oil, basic clothing etc)

3 - Every year the government announces what happens with each rate. As both would affect the VAST majority of Americans, everyone would have skin the game... but the burden would be disproportionately paid by people spending more money than by people earning less or saving more.

I'm pretty sure that is the policy that would fix most of the problems we have on the revenue side pretty much immediately.

We agree most poor people will never move up. Most wealthy people do not move down. So it becomes very important as a society for us to set a floor and ceiling on those economic eventualities. No matter what society you live in, some floor and some ceiling will always exist. My belief is that floor ought to provide poor people with food, shelter, clothing, education, security and distractions. Wealthy people should be able to earn as much as they are able to get and do whatever they want with it *so long as* the needs of the least among us are being met effectively.

Any time you get away from the notion that wealthy people need poor people and poor people need wealthy people... you damage the society and harm everyone in it. The only people who do well in that environment are post-nationalists who are no longer tied to any country and frankly they provide little or nothing for society, so helping them is of no interest to me.

I don't agree with your position on the *basement*. That is what we have today. Generational welfare. Welfare began as the right thing for the right reasons. And look at what it is today.

I would agree with all of it. A very good start.

i watched "Precious" last night and if that's reality ("you don't need education, go get your welfare"), i can understand many white people that are upset that this is the clientele that votes for Obama, probably mostly just because he's black as well.

on the other hand i am pretty sure that enough white people exist with a similar attitude that would never vote for Obama cause he's a "n*****" to them.

just taking welfare away from them is no solution, it just leads to more crime among adults and mostly affects those that can't do anything against it - children.

people need options but the jobs those people can do have been killed by modernization or outsourced long ago.

shitty situation