1. Depends what get's you off. And depends on the quality of the paysite.
2. Depends if you want to come back to the Tube.
3. Yes that was my site, most of the discussion here is about unwanted emails. And CC info has been hacked and misused.
4. Immoral in the sense of getting it for free. Watching American comedy shows, viewing porn isn't as taboo as it was. I remember the day when buying a titty mag was considered a moral crime.

Porntubes satisfy 1,000s to every 1 person who buys. Sending more traffic is no longer the answer, still has done though.

The consumer has to be given solid reasons to pay for porn today. Something that can't be provided on a Tube site, even if it takes 10 minutes to find it. And once found, odds are it's easier to find the next time.

I just searched "milf stockings garters" found a suitable scene in minutes.

This is what today's porn consumer has to choose from.

http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/...ertainty-2.jpg

Just a small selection of what's on offer for the mainstream porn consumer.

The trick isn't just to get more passers by. It's to make them chooseyour site.

I don't think it's OK. It's OK to send them "transactional emails", not "commercial emails". Mixing ads into transactional emails isn't the solution either, it would be regarded as commercial if an average customer feels that it's a marketing email.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...guide-business

If you want to be safe, you could welcome new members with some message in the member area that gets them to double opt-in your future emails for instance.

Great thread this last page. The best offering some sound advice and a few reality checks. Thanks guys.:thumbsup

Well I looked into our TOS and it says if you join you agree to receive promotional emails (that you can unsubscribe from) so maybe that covers it? I think you should be able to email ex-Members, just not spam the shit out of them. LOL

Some of your seem to unrealistically fear or lack understanding of CAN-SPAM compliance. Here is a link for you that should help some of your better understand the law and what it means, requires, and the main bullet points you should follow.

Complying With CAN-SPAM: A 10-Point Checklist for Marketers

In short, it is not that difficult to be compliant. You cover it in your AUP, doubt opt them in, tada. Make it clear you will or can use their email address for your own company, or third party offers. They of course can opt-out if so inclined.

Let me briefly game out a scenario based on your and Robbie's talking points.

Your sales are sliding over the years because of tubes, free content, the boogeyman whatever. Over your time in business, you have amassed a 1 million member or past contact list between your clips4sale store, pay sites, newsletters, sign ups, whatever.

Now, you could use that list to try and promote your own pay site with your discount offers to increase sales. You could use it to market to them mainstream affiliate offers, or any number of other money making options with this list. But you don't, because your REMAINING membership loyalty is gold despite it's on the decline.

At what point do you decide that you need to focus on your company and making money?

If that list could make you $4000.00 a month in affiliate offers for mainstream products would that do it? How about if people paid you to send their offers to your list on a CPM basis that made you $5k+ a month, would that do it? At what point do you start to see the value in your list and money you're losing for the "loyalty" of members who have minimal loyalty to you?

Lastly, people keep citing this "loyalty" that members have. As if they are all going to flee over a few emails. You do know they can opt-out with a single click on the first email received right? If your content is that good, they are not going to leave over a few emails. Additionally, if your members loyalty can be shaken with a few recommended offers, they were not that loyal to begin with. You run a business that needs to stay earn revenue to keep providing what they enjoy.

I read up a bit again, and you could be right. Sending commercial emails only makes you a subject of CAN-SPAM, but at first glance it looks like CAN-SPAM doesn't require opt-in at all, only to honor opt-outs. EU laws seem to require opt-in, don't know if a TOS paragraph is good enough for that.

I guess everyone enforcing double opt-in is more about not getting your emails blacklisted everywhere rather than complying with the laws. I doubt your ex-members would mind too much if they can easily unsubscribe.

By the way another interesting part part of CAN-SPAM is that emails should require a physical address of the sender. I think many adult emails fail to include that.

Sure it's easy to get people to comply if you're in the business of collecting emails with landing pages designed to do that. But if you're mainly collecting paysite customers, it's not that easy. You have several options:
- only include it in the terms of service that members will receive marketing emails (concerns: good enough to comply with laws? may it put you on email blacklists?)
- add a pre-checked checkbox on the join page to subscribe for marketing emails (concerns: good enough to comply with laws? may it put you on email blacklists? also might scare off customers from joining)
- optional offer for members to sign up for marketing emails with a real double opt-in (concerns: a large percentage probably won't do it)

It's even harder if you're already given a situation, eg. you have tens of thousands of member emails but you never asked them consent to send them marketing material.

.....or you would do the same thing that large corporations do.

That is, you send out a notice to all present, past, members and notify them that the pay site's TOS has changed, here is a link to it for review if so inclined, and provide an opt out link on that page.

I am honestly not sure why some of you are making it more difficult than it really is.

Thanks for the voice of reason. This is not rocket science...

Sure. All I'm saying is that one should do his due diligence and make sure to comply with laws rather than just taking the emails and start spamming away.

I do agree that there's big money in emailing ex-members and possibly current ones. :)

My thoughts exactly.

If that Porn Nerd or others think all email marketing is spam, fine. Do not send email then. It really that simple and there is no need for additional excuses and nonsense on the topic of CAN-SPAM, opt-in permissions and so forth. I will concede from the opinions some have shared that email marketing is not the right choice for everyone, but if you feel that you will lose all of your members because of it, so be it. We agree to disagree.

I think the OP's point of view was that your members or newsletter lists are gold, and you have any number of ways to use them to make you more money. Not all of it is just sending adult offers. I did not see his remarks as condescending, but I can see where some would if he's an outsider coming in talking to established guys like Robbie.

Either way, some of the replies in the thread on the topic are ridiculous. It is not that hard to get opt-in, change a TOS, or get them an opt-out link if they do not want it.

Correct.

:thumbsup

BF you are missing a couple of things though. The reason that it can be a worry over the Can Spam Act is this: "For each and every violation of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003, a business or person engaging in commercial emailings can be fined up to $11,000."

That's one of the big reasons that affiliate programs put an end to allowing affiliates to send out email campaigns for their sites.

I'm kinda surprised that Clips 4 Sale is allowing you to do it.
If for any reason you get flagged...it will be THEM being fined.

Not saying that you aren't correct. I'm just pointing out that you keep saying that you can't understand why people are so worried about it.

Big difference in what you're doing with Clips 4 Sale and what I'm doing as the paysite owner.

Having said that...it's still easy to actually do it as a paysite owner. There are just far more variables in a recurring revenue situation like I have VS you making clip sales that are not recurring.

You can scoff at member loyalty all day long. But the fact is...without the loyal recurring members a paysite owner is fucked.
And in our case...they are able to email (private message) both Claudia Marie and myself inside the members area already (which they do).
And I'm also able to do upsells (which I do) inside the members area (without getting spammy about it).

It's just a different way to skin the cat between your CS4 site and a paysite. :)

Well said.

I have to fight against the same naysayers in the mainstream.

They treat their list like rose petals because they're afraid of losing a single subscriber.

It's silly. We're in this to make money.

And if you monetize your list creatively, the revenue you'll pull in will far outstrip any lost members.

I can't fathom why it's so "disrespectful" for me to point this out -- just trying to help a few porn webmasters.

But perhaps I should bow in reverence to Robbie because he filmed John Holmes and back in the day made beaucoup bucks. Naturally, he knows far more about email marketing than me (even though by his own admission he rarely does it).

I have newsletters, present and past members to my pay sites, as well as C4S among other lists developed over time. Referencing the C4S was just an example, not to say I just do one over the other. I can assure you that one is no difference in that regard.

There are other reasons for adult programs saying they do not allow it publicly, despite most mail themselves. But that is a different discussion. As I said, some people in this thread are dead set against it, and the reasons cited are honestly laughable to me. But then again, I have years of experience.

Anyway, we will just agree to disagree as you have made your decision on the subject.

@NaughtyEmails: It wasn't disrespectful of you.

What I said in the very beginning was that you were "lol"ing at people who are far better at this than you are.

And you are still attacking me and pretending that because I'm very successful in this business and have adapted and changed more times than a chameleon to stay that way ...that somehow a person such as yourself with no experience is better at this than I am?

Dude. Grow the fuck up.

I've already educated you about the FACT that you are NOT going to be able to do email campaigns as an affiliate as you were claiming you could in the beginning.

You don't know what you're talking about.

I've seen these kinds of posts from other smartasses who came on the scene thinking they know more than professionals with real experience do.

None of them are still around.

Here's my advice to you...instead of mouthing off to people, you should do what I do when I come across someone with more experience at something: Sit down under the learning tree and check your ego.

I disagree with Robbie when it comes to email marketing and his point of views on this subject as well. I am not saying some of his concerns might have some validity to those who do not understand email marketing on the scale you're referencing.

That said, Robbie is one of the smartest guys in the adult space and been around a long time accomplishing more than most still active on this forum. While that does not mean he is always right, you also should not dismiss him and his point of view either just because you disagree.

I have done adult and mainstream email marketing. I know the potential. I have seen the power of newsletters and emailing members, developing new lists and the revenue it can bring with the RIGHT offers + solid deliverability. But as this thread has shown you, there are some who simply have dug in their heels on the subject.

I never make any final decision. I'm always subject to change! :)

That's why I DO send out emails to my members SPARINGLY.

And as I said we communicate and upsell them already inside the members area as well.

It's just a different way to approach it. And yeah BF, you have a few years experience and you're a smart guy. But I remember not too long ago when you attended your first shows and were trying to find your way.

Don't get too jaded brother! Keep that old BareFootsies attitude of being open and learning.
You're a very smart guy and you should be proud of what you've accomplished. But there are reasons that I do things the way I do and they aren't "laughable". Just getting to the same destination in a slightly different way.

Our members are fans of Claudia. We have to treat them a bit differently than I would if it were a paysite featuring many models.

That's why we are so successful. The interaction that goes on inside the site. Our members are literally talking to her everyday on live cam and private messaging.

I can't really spam them via email. But I CAN and DO hit them with offers inside the members area. And they trust me. So I can sell them on stuff.

Always learning man. Don't let the text come across harsher than intended. I do not know everything, I just know a lot about the subject matter at hand in regards to email marketing and potential revenue. I past and present work with some of the bigger programs, and ESPs, in the mainstream arena doing this stuff day in and out in some capacity.

Never stopped. Always tinkering and trying new stuff brother. The only constant is change. When at the conferences, I try and pick the brains of guys like yourself, Wizzo, JT, Dillie, Jimmy Gunn, or guys that know a lot of things I do not and try and apply that knowledge so I can work smarter versus harder.

No insult was meant to you or anyone else in the thread. As you know from the years, I am just straight to the point in my use of language. Often times people take it harder than intended. I am used to it by now. It is not intended to bash anyone. Just my writing style.

:thumbsup

Again, for a guy who is so "successful" in this business, you whine and moan a lot.

I wrote an inspirational post, saying there's money on the table, and specifically mention a low-cost marketing channel in which to go get it. And you get offended by that? It's not my ego that's the problem.

You keep harping on your dying affiliate offers that don't allow email...Big deal. There are a gazillion different products (adult and mainstream) you can pitch your list. But you're too close minded to consider it.

That's fine. But stop hijacking the thread with your good 'ol days stories. And let the rest of us carry on making sales. Cheers.

Whine and moan? LOL!

Where did I whine and moan? Brother you are delusional. Good luck with your entry into the adult world.

I like your cocky attitude (I have one too).
Here's to you learning more about the industry and being able to back it up. :pimp

Oh I know! You've pissed off so many people in the past. lol

But I know you as a person and know that text does come across as sterile and harsh. You've never offended me in any way. And I would never be disrespectful to you either. (Unless I see you at a show and call you a "pussy" when you won't drink with me lol)

That's an assumption.

You're not going to make me go back and copy/paste the many times you mentioned how much money you used to make, are ya?

I'll admit...I have much to learn about porn. And if I hear wisdom, I'll listen up.

But you've spent this entire thread talking about how awesome you are and your veteran status. It's great that you've managed to stick around.

But what results are you getting NOW? What's the trend? Up or down?

It may surprise you but there are people laughing all the way to the bank in this biz. I know a couple. I've worked with one or two.

All I'm interested in is what's working for them.

If that makes me come across as grating, then so be it. I'm here to make money, not kiss ass.

Whatever NaughtyEmails. The only time I talked about "how much money I made" was to point out to you that there is a reason that people say that "there's no money in porn".

They don't literally mean that there isn't ANY money. There is plenty. But it is contracting greatly.

Do you really think I'm bragging to say that I used to make 7 figures a year just as an affiliate and now I don't?
Hell no. That's not bragging. That's pointing out a dying business model in adult.

Many of the big companies are doing almost all of their marketing in-house these days because affiliates don't have the traffic anymore and allowing affiliates to email is taboo.

That's just stating FACTS. Not whining or moaning.

I, and many others ARE success stories in how to continue to be successful through creating different revenue streams. If you think it was easy to watch one revenue stream that I worked to create for over a decade...suddenly dry up, you're crazy.

But I didn't let it stop me.

And I'm sorry if I look at disdain with yet ANOTHER post from a guy with no experience trying to tell all of us that we're doing it all wrong. Again.

And I hope you do make money. I never asked you to "kiss ass".

And no, I'm not surprised at people "laughing all the way to the bank". I'm one of them.
Maybe you will be one day too.

As for the results NOW...as you asked: I pretty plainly have said that my paysite business is still just fine. It's my affiliate side of the business that went to hell...just like EVERYBODY else did.

And you aren't "interested in what's working for them". If you were you would have listened to what I told you. I AM one of "them".
Instead you've spent the thread telling us that you know better and you have "clients" that you are already doing email campaigns as affiliates in the adult industry.

No problem. As I said, I don't mind someone with a cocky attitude.
I hope it works out for you. Good luck.

BF: Thanks for that link! If I can ask, would you recommend using an email service like YNOT or Mail Chimp? The cost for me would be $200 a month with Mail Chimp but they say unlimited emails to my 40K+ list.

After reading some great advice in this thread (and others) on the subject I believe I am ready to test emails with some good offers, both for my sites and other mainstream offers.

I did some research. I had used YNOT for about 1 1/2 years and sent out emails once a month to ex-Members. Plus I do a weekly newsletter. So I looked at both stats and guess what? Only about 2% of subscribers UNsubscribed. Meaning, my lists are still big and people were not opting out like crazy. Even a couple hundred only constitutes a tiny fraction.

Time to go for it! :)

Again, I already said my experience in adult is limited.

But I've been in IM consulting for a decade...working with the best minds in the industry.

For you to say that has absolutely zero carryover to Adult is just silly. It's still IM.

But anyhow, let's put it behind us. We don't see eye-to-eye and that's perfectly fine with me.

What I've been told by a certain guy who is THE biggest email guy in the adult industry is:
The problem is how much of your email is getting into the inbox.

That's why he's such a big success. BUT...even he is mostly being hired by cam and dating companies these days as opposed to a few years back when he was being hired by the big paysites.

So Porn Nerd, keep that in mind. Are they not opting out because they want the emails? Or are they not opting out because they never SEE the emails.

That's the problem I've had when using the different emailing SMTP services.

A lot of times, those services by their very nature have already been added to blacklists. :(

I don't think it has zero carryover. Matter of fact I think that it probably won't take long for you to get up to speed and use your skills from mainstream to apply to adult.

Again, good luck to you. After arguing with you for a few pages I see that you are serious about it. I hope that some of my "whining and moaning" might have given you at least a couple of insights that you can use to your advantage. :)

I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, but...

Email deliverability is not the rocket science you're making it out to be. You can figure out if you're emails are getting through after the first campaign.

And if they're not...ready for it....you SWITCH servers.

Email 101. There are plenty of white-listed providers out there to choose from. Some of them don't work with adult, but many do.

Again, you're moaning about something that really isn't a problem. But it's like the adult industry threw up their hands in the air after the anti-spam laws and never bothered to find a solution. It's bewildering.

I appreciate that. And I respect your experience in the industry. You've no doubt got insights that we can all benefit from...

Honestly, my posts probably came across more 'gruff' than I intended them to be. I'll try not to step on anybody's toes in the future.:winkwink:

Fuck 'em if they can't take it! :1orglaugh

Mail Chimp is not adult friendly. I use SMTP and host my own mailing script, although they will also do it for you. Bladewire recommended Campaigner for full service earlier in this thread. YNot is upselling SMTP with the Interspire script.

Keep in mind that low unsubscribe could also mean low deliverability.

Thank you, I am keeping that in mind. That low % was from people who actually received/opened the email. But I hear what you are saying. My thinking today is to use a 3rd party provider while I learn the ropes before taking on the duties of a mail server, etc.

I did notice Campaigner (thanks Baldewire!) after I signed on for Mail Chimp but I have to try MC for one month at least. LOL It's already paid up. But I will look for other solutions starting with Campaigner. :thumbsup

PS: As one of your affiliates I always open up your emails. :)

Just do a search for white-listed email providers? Or is there a better resource for such information? :) Thanks in advance.

It's all good broheme. :thumbsup

In between the ranting, this thread has some actual biz talk, so I think it needs a bump.

http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/...ertainty-2.jpg

Just a small selection of what's on offer for the mainstream porn consumer.

This is the problem. Even if you're offering oranges, or kiwis or potatoes, etc. The selection is huge, there are millions of scenes for the consumers. Stretching from the days cameras were invented to yesterday. The valve controlling distribution is gone, the consumer is flooded and there's free stuff as well. Converting at 1-30,000 to more views.

A publisher can go into high quality, high production and the costs will make profits hard. Or amateur and drown. Or niche and whereas that used to be "Leg" or MILF. These are now mainstream. So it has to be micro niche, small market, specialised and low return for most.

There will always be money in porn, just not a lot. Unless free porn tubes implode with costs more than returns. And that doesn't look like happening.