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The Porn Nerd 01-24-2016 11:09 AM

The debate comes down to this:

Do you want a society where everyone fends for themselves (fuck everyone else) or do you want to live in a society with a social safety net so we don't see seniors, the handicapped and the mentally ill living on the streets?

For those who advocate RICH RICH RICH and fuck everyone else take a look at history. That doesn't work. Neither does Communism (everyone owns everything/nothing). We need a BALANCE of the two extremes; a social safety net that also provides incentive to those who can get off the dole. For those who cannot work (the handicap, the elderly) tough titties. We pay for them in a civilized society. Deal with it or move to Russia. LOL

Rob 01-24-2016 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arock10 (Post 20709347)
Ok so what's the plan when automation (self driving cars etc) puts a giant chunk of the work force out of work. Sorry man, government is going to have to keep stepping in and continually try to work against market forces to keep the country stable.

And what happens when robots become self aware and launch attacks against humans? You're talking hypothetical, nothing substantial. I'm sure a bunch of workers freaked out and screamed that the sky was falling during the industrial revolution when steam power and assembly lines replaced a lot of workers. But instead, the workers adapted and a new, innovative worker was born. Then during the computer age, a lot of human jobs were replaced by computers. The same phenomenon occurred; the worker adapted, and once again, a new and more innovative worker was born. Could you imagine if any of those technological advances were held back because people were worried about workers losing their jobs? Or worse, intrusive government involvement?

Surprise, surprise, none of that stopped them, and most of this all happened with limited government involvement. The adaptability and resilience of workers only creates a stronger workforce. All without government involvement or influence, actually, in spite of it. :2 cents:

Rob 01-24-2016 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd (Post 20709355)
The debate comes down to this:

Do you want a society where everyone fends for themselves (fuck everyone else) or do you want to live in a society with a social safety net so we don't see seniors, the handicapped and the mentally ill living on the streets?

For those who advocate RICH RICH RICH and fuck everyone else take a look at history. That doesn't work. Neither does Communism (everyone owns everything/nothing). We need a BALANCE of the two extremes; a social safety net that also provides incentive to those who can get off the dole. For those who cannot work (the handicap, the elderly) tough titties. We pay for them in a civilized society. Deal with it or move to Russia. LOL

I don't believe that's accurate at all. I have no problem helping seniors, the handicapped, the mentally ill, homeless, or children in need. I'll gladly do my part to help. And I believe this statement is exactly what's wrong with the entire political landscape. It's either you're for helping EVERYONE or you're all about FUCKING EVERYONE therefore an advocate for the rich. It's all black and white, no gray area. And that's doing nothing but polarizing the sides. Things are not absolute, and they shouldn't be defined as such.

Why can't I be for the little guy? Help seniors, single moms, and mentally ill, but be against moochers and leeches of society? If someone is able bodied but flat out refuses to work because they're lazy, why should I be responsible for them? Why should I wake up at 6am and be responsible for someone who isn't? For those who lack the ability to take care of themselves, it's our responsibility to assist them. But laziness is not a lack of ability, it's a self inflicted ailment with handouts only enabling said sickness.

I lean more right, I'm a registered Republican, but I am pro-choice. I'm pro-marijuana legalization. I'm for gay rights, and think homosexuals should be able to get married. I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination. But if I were to go into a room and state, "I'm a Republican", people would automatically assume none of this was true. That's because there is no in-between. Either you're all in, or all out...and that's not a proper way to approach the issues we currently have in this country.

The Porn Nerd 01-24-2016 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob (Post 20709364)
I don't believe that's accurate at all. I have no problem helping seniors, the handicapped, the mentally ill, homeless, or children in need. I'll gladly do my part to help. And I believe this statement is exactly what's wrong with the entire political landscape. It's either you're for helping EVERYONE or you're all about FUCKING EVERYONE therefore an advocate for the rich. It's all black and white, no gray area. And that's doing nothing but polarizing the sides. Things are not absolute, and they shouldn't be defined as such.

Why can't I be for the little guy? Help seniors, single moms, and mentally ill, but be against moochers and leeches of society? If someone is able bodied but flat out refuses to work because they're lazy, why should I be responsible for them? Why should I wake up at 6am and be responsible for someone who isn't? For those who lack the ability to take care of themselves, it's our responsibility to assist them. But laziness is not a lack of ability, it's a self inflicted ailment with handouts only enabling said sickness.

I lean more right, I'm a registered Republican, but I am pro-choice. I'm pro-marijuana legalization. I'm for gay rights, and think homosexuals should be able to get married. I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination. But if I were to go into a room and state, "I'm a Republican", people would automatically assume none of this was true. That's because there is no in-between. Either you're all in, or all out...and that's not a proper way to approach the issues we currently have in this country.

Well maybe you missed the end part where I said we need a BALANCE between the two extremes. Help the elderly, handicapped, etc (as you said) but ALSO try and give incentives for those who DO have the ability to contribute to society and work but instead prefer to be lazy and taken care of.

So we are actualy in agreement here. LOL

Rob 01-24-2016 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd (Post 20709369)
Well maybe you missed the end part where I said we need a BALANCE between the two extremes. Help the elderly, handicapped, etc (as you said) but ALSO try and give incentives for those who DO have the ability to contribute to society and work but instead prefer to be lazy and taken care of.

So we are actualy in agreement here. LOL

My bad, I actually did miss that part. :thumbsup

Robbie 01-24-2016 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd (Post 20709369)
Well maybe you missed the end part where I said we need a BALANCE between the two extremes. Help the elderly, handicapped, etc (as you said) but ALSO try and give incentives for those who DO have the ability to contribute to society and work but instead prefer to be lazy and taken care of.

So we are actualy in agreement here. LOL

That's kind of what I said in an earlier post: There is a "sweet spot" between the 2 extremes. I think the govt. went too far in the wrong direction a few decades back and it's time for the pendulum to swing back somewhat.

A staggering 43% of the American workforce is unemployed.
46 million people are on foodstamps.
The national debt is heading for 20 TRILLION dollars.

The govt. is no longer just "helping" older people. It's trying to control far more than that. And the results are the same as always when the govt. gets involved too far.

xKingx 01-24-2016 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd (Post 20709355)
The debate comes down to this:

Do you want a society where everyone fends for themselves (fuck everyone else) or do you want to live in a society with a social safety net so we don't see seniors, the handicapped and the mentally ill living on the streets?

For those who advocate RICH RICH RICH and fuck everyone else take a look at history. That doesn't work. Neither does Communism (everyone owns everything/nothing). We need a BALANCE of the two extremes; a social safety net that also provides incentive to those who can get off the dole. For those who cannot work (the handicap, the elderly) tough titties. We pay for them in a civilized society. Deal with it or move to Russia. LOL


Best response in the whole thread. We need to be in the middle on this.

dyna mo 01-24-2016 12:48 PM

Bernie addresses the critiques of his plans this morning, a summary

Bernie Sanders brushes aside critiques of his economic policy ideas - The Washington Post

The Porn Nerd 01-24-2016 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 20709405)
That's kind of what I said in an earlier post: There is a "sweet spot" between the 2 extremes. I think the govt. went too far in the wrong direction a few decades back and it's time for the pendulum to swing back somewhat.

A staggering 43% of the American workforce is unemployed.
46 million people are on foodstamps.
The national debt is heading for 20 TRILLION dollars.

The govt. is no longer just "helping" older people. It's trying to control far more than that. And the results are the same as always when the govt. gets involved too far.

And I agree totally with your earlier post Robbie! :) The problems with any kind of social support system are vast, especially in a nation of 300+ million people. Plus we have a history of immigration & assimilation that is also broken and feeding the problem. So any "fix" we could think of would have to incorporate ALL aspects of the broken American system. Meaning economics, racism, immigration, values, taxes, etc.

I wish someone could just flick a switch and make things all better. :helpme

tony286 01-24-2016 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 20709405)
That's kind of what I said in an earlier post: There is a "sweet spot" between the 2 extremes. I think the govt. went too far in the wrong direction a few decades back and it's time for the pendulum to swing back somewhat.

A staggering 43% of the American workforce is unemployed.
46 million people are on foodstamps.
The national debt is heading for 20 TRILLION dollars.

The govt. is no longer just "helping" older people. It's trying to control far more than that. And the results are the same as always when the govt. gets involved too far.

Read the book rise of the robots and you will understand how you are being played. Nothing will change, less and less people are being needed. Automation is making the work force smaller and smaller. Google made 14 billion with 38,000 people , gm did that for over 800,000 people. And its going to get worse.

AmeliaG 01-24-2016 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt (Post 20709231)
Half the 18 year olds should be nowhere near a college - they enroll in programs acquiring knowledge that will only be useful shooting their mouths off on Internet forums, most don't even get an undergraduate degree, meanwhile they are now 20 and already in debt with college loans. Donald Trump promises that when he becomes President he will somehow force Apple to manufacture the iPhone and its other products in the USA - industry experts say even if Apple wanted to manufacture in the US they couldn't, a major reason why is the US doesn't have the number of skilled people qualified to do the job - our people are either overqualified/too expensive or underqualified to do the work required. Kids should be in tech/trade schools/community colleges after high school to get the skills to do those kind of jobs.

As for the kids who really are mature enough and have the motivation to go to school and get a degree, here's a list of hundreds of damn good universities in the US with tuition fees between $5-10K a year 2015 US State Colleges and University Tuition Costs Comparison Table - what's the fucking problem with that? There is no reason in the 4 months of summer vacation a kid can't make $5,000 - if the kid wants to live on campus or his own apartment, get a part-time job or Mom and Dad can help out or get a loan. Don't be looking at strangers for handouts, try doing it yourself with some help from those who brought you into this world. If I had my way I'd sterilize everybody over 12, white black and every other color in between, until they are self supporting human beings capable of supporting a child.

Anyway there's not a chance in hell Bernie Sanders will become President of the United States but 20 years from now most of his plan will have come to pass - the US was never the capitalist utopia conservatives like to harken back to, look at the income tax rates in the 1950's - the top marginal tax rate was as high as 90%. There were a ton of loopholes but even so the top tax rate was 50-60%. The US has been on a steady path of increasing socialism since the Great Depression, like the rest of the world's democracies. Reagan and Clinton let the bankers and the very rich get richer and richer without paying their fair share but socialism continued, the national debt is testament to that. As long as the US dollar remains the world's reserve currency I say just keep borrowing and printing money - who's coming to collect on it?

The US needs a flat tax with every loophole the richest and largest corporations and individuals use to avoid paying their fair share wiped out. Trump has railed many times against corporate tax inversions, he's railed against the medical insurance companies, would be very interesting to see if he came through on promises to do something about those.

Bernie would be a complete mess because he'd deliver on the higher taxes for everybody but he'd never be able to pull off most of his plan to pay for his promises while hurting small businesses, costing more jobs, putting more people on the public dole.

Trump isn't the ogre and moron he's playing in this campaign, if he were to get into the White House, he'd reveal himself to be what he really is - a New Yorker, more liberal than conservative, he'd appease the right who got him elected by being tough on immigration, supporting the 2nd Amendment to the hilt, and just good old fashioned American patriotism/jingoism.

Most of the colleges on that list would most likely not make a graduate employable and would not nurture high performing students. In addition, the useful degrees on that list cost much more for out of state. So how is that supposed to work for people who don't live in California, Ohio, Arizona, or Pennsylvania? (I'd add Texas as a good deal with a decent education too, although it is not on the list.) Those tuition figures don't cover living expenses either.

I'm not saying the Bernie plan is the solution. Partly, his plan to just refi existing student loans but give freebies to new students seems grossly unfair. While we all benefit from an educated populace, making people pay for other people's kids for another 4 or 7 or 10 years seems unreasonable.

I am saying that we should acknowledge that the student loan system and wildly inflated tuitions are a problem. And we should get our numbers right.

Robbie 01-24-2016 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286 (Post 20709459)
Read the book rise of the robots and you will understand how you are being played.

Tony, I'm not sure how I personally am being "played" by anyone. I don't blindly follow either of the 2 ruling party's.

As for automation taking jobs...what do you think I've been talking about in all of those threads where people are wanting the minimum wage raised to $15 for unskilled labor?

I've warned over and over that companies will simply automate. It will be even cheaper than paying those McDonald's grunt workers $1 an hour. Much less $15 an hour.

ITraffic 01-24-2016 09:24 PM

lol i seriously hope you don't believe the current drive towards automation and ai is because of a min wage increase avoidance.

if you do you truly have been brainwashed buy your propaganda system there.

Why Robots Mean Interest Rates Could Go Even Lower In The Future - Bloomberg Business

but don't worry as more and more of the population is made useless and extraneous over the next decade there will be plenty of political extremism for you to get behind as well.

Robbie 01-24-2016 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITraffic (Post 20709697)
lol i seriously hope you don't believe the current drive towards automation and ai is because of a min wage increase avoidance.

if you do you truly have been brainwashed buy your propaganda system there.

Why Robots Mean Interest Rates Could Go Even Lower In The Future - Bloomberg Business

but don't worry as more and more of the population is made useless and extraneous over the next decade there will be plenty of political extremism for you to get behind as well.

Why would you even say I "believe" that?
Did you not read what I just wrote?

I think it's pretty clear that fast food restaurants COULD have automated a long time ago.
But I guarantee you they WILL automate if they are forced to pay unskilled labor $15 an hour.

I'm not "brainwashed" by anything or anyone. I'm telling you what I would do with my own business.
You would do the same exact thing. So take your snarky comments about being brainwashed and rethink what you say to me.

The Porn Nerd 01-24-2016 09:59 PM

I have to checkout and bag my own groceries now. What's the difference if I walk up to a McDonalds counter and push a few icons on a tablet screen? One cheeseburger, one milk shake, etc. Then it comes out at the end of the counter POOF. Like Star Trek's food replicater.

I am seriously shocked we do not have that yet with Burger King et al.


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