Uh, yeah: Huh?

Wha ?

I would rather risk a sponsor shaving.. they can't shave too much or they lose my traffic... than do a partnership and have to rely on the site retaining. From my experience, most sites don't retain all that well. I do have a mix of recurring and per sign up sponsors that I use and it works, but when I try a new sponsor, I want to try the per sign up to see how they convert first before I stick around to see how they retain.

If people don't want sponsors to shave, then they have to lower their expectations. You can't insist on $50 payments on a free trial. Give the sponsors some leeway and allow them to put up a reasonable payout per sale, etc and the business would get cleaned up. The long time webmasters know this and several people have said it here. But it does all come down to the amount of money you make. I could send all of my traffic to sponsor A who has a 50/50 recurring and make 1/3 as much upfront.... or I can send it to sponsor B who pays per sign up and I don't have to worry about the rebillings. I don't support shaving, but I'm not naive and you can pretty much tell who will need to shave if you look past the big $$'s and see what you're sending your traffic to.

Jigga who?

I can remember my first contact with shave stories...I was in a cab with a big big playa at the 2000 Vancouver convention and got the "It's ok cos everyone does it, it's an accepted part of the business" story. I found other ways to do it than use sponsors
and have never looked back.

It's odd how pragmatic all the replies are... I originally started this because I was insensed by a display I felt showed a lack of morals. I have been thinking about this as a matter of right and wrong, but all most people seem to be asking is "What sponsors should I use?" Do people not care about right and wrong, at least with respect to this issue?

I think pragmatism is the key...What does right or wrong have to do with points on the sale of Bukkake pictures etc. It's all trash and anyone who has been at this for a while has seen it all or done it all.

One thing I might point out is that the richest guys I know do not cheat...And those I know who cheat as a matter of policy usually self destruct after some point.

Gothweb, I don't have ICQ, therefore I don't get "you've been added" messages - send me a message or give me your icq # please. ;>

Cheers,
Backov

I can't believe you fuckers actually support shaving -- you should all be lined up and shot...

There are too many honest people to work with to waste time w/ shavers. If you can't make your per/signup program profit w/o shaving then your content must SUCK ASS... That's why you never sign up for a program that has a shit tour -- if you wouldn't sign up for a membership yourself -- there's a red flag that they are shaving.

I could give a fuck about the check at the front door -- next time you open the door there may be no check waiting... then you will change your tune about dishonest people.

Anyway thanks for the post -- personally I just sent off an ICQ to tell somebody to take me off their per/signup program and onto partnership :p

Anyway -- all those people that talk about "the check at the door" -- I hope you realize that people read these posts and will remember that you support dishonest biz practices.

Really I don't care how many "big players" I offend -- this is the fucking internet -- not an old boys club... You don't have to kiss anyone's ass just because they know how to make a quick dishonest buck.

Well said, Fly.

Going to Hollywood?

Cheers,
Backov

Topbucks is weird for me. I send them few traffic -- it converts decent. I then send them a lot more traffic -- conversion craps out.

Oh well.

I don't agree with the idea that "as long as i get paid, i don't give a shit if they lie/cheat/steal/shave". Not anymore. I've dealt with people in the past that I knew were fucking other people, but were being straight with me. And I figured, as long as they don't cheat me, it's not my business - and these were *big* players. Well guess what, eventually they WILL fuck you. It's just a matter of time.

There is a lot of BS in this business. Mostly because adult attracts a lot of get-rich-quick artists that have little concept of business or ethics. That doesn't mean everyone in adult is a scumbag, but scumbags are attracted to adult.

I would never shave, and I'll tell you why. It's not just a matter of ethics, you do FEEL better about how you got your money. Even if you're a greedy, you should learn that you'll make more money in the long run being honest. Really.. When people trust you it opens up future opportunities you haven't even thought of yet.

The problem is, a lot of webmasters care so much about the buck that they're blinded by high percentages, or initial payouts. So that pressures the sponsor that may be waivering about what payouts to offer and whether he should shave or not. The old rule of "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" applies to this business too.


People are only as honest as they can afford to be.

:winkwink:

I think just about every program out their shaves.

We've coded a few affiliate program backends (no, we do not divulge client lists, but you might be a bit surprised), and one of the first things asked was "will you build in a shaver? I want it to work like X".

It bothered me at first, and I can't say I'd shave if I owned a paysite. It's just striking that over the MANY (over 10) aff. program quotes I've done (havn't won a lot of them, obviously), every single one mentioned shaving as a must-have feature or no deal.

Something to think about...

-Phil

Yeah, but you programmed it in, didn't you?

"Hi. We need a baby mutilating machine. We want it to work like *this*..."

"Hi, I need to eat" ;)

Seriously, we've refused before, and even got the work. Looked back later on to fix bugs, and they simply hired some guys to put the code in after the fact.


Any sponsor you use, probably does it. It's just one of those unkept secrets in the industry.

I even have heard from major customers of some big payment processors that THEY even have shavers built-in if you ask, and pull enough $$$ with them. They were losing too many customers to custom coded stuff, I suppose. Heresay I know, but I tend to believe it given the status of the individuals telling me.

I understand the way you feel though. I personally wouldn't do it if I ran a paysite, but I also will never, ever, be making the bank that a lot of the people that do run programs make.. Perhaps that tells you something?


This industry is a magnet for the most dishonest, can't make it in the real world people I've ever seen. There are definitely quite a number of honest to god bright and upstanding individuals, but the percentage of "bad people" is nuts.

Note the number of people stiffing hosting companies out of cash, how when you're an affiliate with a program making just BANK, and they don't get paid for something they just stiff you? Real world, that would never happen in the amounts seen here.

In short, it's part of dealing with the industry. Either learn to not let it bother you and keep your head up, or you'll quickly turn into a quivering mass of gelatin. ;)

-Phil

aahahahaha - that's pretty damn funny

sure bashing shaving is ok but take it easy on those of us bulding baby mutilating machines :)

Listen I tried to give you an education and you post our conversation on this board.

Ill never help a newbie again.

HAHA That was funny.

A while back some guy came here and posted a link to a cascading processor script. Came with a built in shaver. Was pretty funny that he spammed the shit here, then was surprised when there was a backlash.

LOL I have the screen shots of that. That was pretty funny stuff.

I'm pretty sure you're not the guy... but you sound just like him!

There it is for you.
A big webmaster in Holland told me;

"If you don't offer as much as the others, you don't get the traffic. Then if you pay out honestly, you pay out more than you get in. So shaving is the only way to make it work"

Basically this is what the guy was trying to say. If he did not give the high price he would not get the traffic, if he did not shave he would be bankrupt. WHICH WOULD NOT BENFIT ANYONE.

Very true. I've been in this business as a photographer since 1978. Sold my first set in the UK to "Mayfair" sold them a set this month as well, same with Barely Legal, first two front cover sets, and still sell to them.

In the magazine business you do business with the same people year in and year out. The problem with the net is there are too many conmen, get rich quick, chancers and people with no ethics coming into it. Yesterday a guy placed an order for $125, actually paid for it on Paypal, today he cancelled it, cos he did not think it was what he wanted.:feels-hot He will wonder why I tell him to stick his next order where the sun does not shine.

I like that he calls it a razor ;)

Technically we don't shave -- we just use a razor.

POLLY WANNA A CRACKER ?


LOL