Since when did 12clicks become relevant again?

Yeah you must be a fucking newbie because cross sells have been on the net for years... here's a realtity check dude... the net is still alive!!!!!! So Fuck Off!!

:1orglaugh

Dennis, you are an idiot :1orglaugh

Come on, youre seriously saying surfers who surf free stuff is worse for this industry than honest surfers who are willing to pay who get fucked up the ass on a massive level?

Think about it for a second and then realize how stupid you sound :1orglaugh

Still you are probably dealing with someone who is aroused and wishes to complete the membership fast and may not pay full attention.

So I still think that having pre-checked cross-sales is shady.

Actually anytime a banner or ad comes on gfy ,i go check. So Im not speaking out of my ass. Ive been doing this for 8 yrs now. Though it's easy just to label people haters, people dont operate in a vacuum. Lost paypal and that was a nice chunk of memberships each month, saw cb ratio go to 1% and ibill went down the toilet owing me 13 grand. So considering all those things were caused by the actions of others and affected my bottom line. I think I have paid a pretty dollar for the right to be pissed off.

tony I'm not sure that paypal was anybody in this industries fault was it? I thought ebay bought them and that was that. But I'm not well versed on it.

Im sure 12clicks isnt the only one who wishes you would drop this, but no i havent seen his stats, but i did stay at a holiday inn last night.

And they got charged a dollar OR a free trial. And once they blow their load they can see in their email box 2 emails. One with the site they KNOW they joined. And one with the info for the site that was pre-checked. They can then cancel it.

What I hate...are the motherfuckers that join by ACH and then have a good old time in your members area before the bank figures out their check is no good a few days later. :(

Or how about those "innocent", "naive", and "stupid" surfers who join your site...stay for 5 months....I can look them up in our login logs and see all the stuff they did...and then BAM hit you for 5 fucking chargebacks. Yeah, surfers are real stupid. not

bump for the clicks

no it was the level of fraud.

How did people do that with paypal? Damn, I guess I learn something everyday. I had thought it was from Ebay buying them out. I had an ad on there and it said my item was "kick-ass" and they yanked the ad and wrote me an email telling me not to use "foul language" lol

http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/wire...pal/print.html
They did it the same way they did with credit cards

That was Franck.

One could get the idea that maybe at one point they where assraped with a $120 crosssale and now they are getting even by assraping back the next porn site they joined.. now wouldn't that be ironic ?

..Or it could be that Joe surfer got so pissed about extra charges cheated upon him that he actually called his bank and got a chargeback.. Now Joe not only got his money back, but he also found out how easy it is to do a chargeback.. So next time Joe joins a pornsite he has learned two valuable lessons.. 1) pornsites will cheat him.. 2) How to chargeback..

Isn't it great how we turned a once innocent and naive guy ready to buy porn, into a now educated surfer that knows the game ?

Now after 5 months Joes wife/daughter/son used Joes card to buy some $19.95 stupid shit on the net and forgets to tell Joe about it, so all Joe see's is an unknown charge on his CC statement and thinks "that's those damn cheating pornsites again".. Think you can guess what Joe does now ? a chargeback for his 5 month membership maybe ?

So has Nigerian Scams :2 cents:

:1orglaugh

I loves me some cross sales... I'll buy all you have from netbilling!!!

And it could be that is all just conjecture and guessing on your part. I got a quick education into this by simply googling my sites name and then going to some of the countless forums out there where the poor ignorant surfers gather to talk about the different ways to break into paysites. I'm sure you've seen password trading forums? They've been replaced by "upload" forums, where those poor dumb surfers slap each other on the back for how many scenes they have uploaded and provide the links for.

Assraped? That's ridiculous. You got assraped when you bought your last car and paid THOUSANDS of dollars in bullshit charges. Both of my brothers are in the car business...I know every trick. And when I buy a new vehicle I take one of them with me and the car dealership is VERY disappointed. They call it bringing your "lawyer" when you bring in an insider. A one dollar trial that the surfer can cancel at anytime and/or chargeback? Hardly an assrape. But that's just the way I see it. Many on here refuse to see anything except the dramatic. I don't. But it does make for good fodder for the freesites.

I don't take submissions on my tgp's anymore since around 2003. But if I did, I would be extorting the fuck out of the programs that have x-sells. Even though they have had them for 8 years or more already...I would use all this drama as a way to be "shocked" and then I'd start a nice monthly extortion payment to keep my traffic coming to them.

So see? There's a silver lining! lol

Despite what they dished out to the press they did not kill off adult for fraud. They killed off adult transactions due to content, primarily legal but highly controversial underage non nude sites and the fact that ebay did not wish to be tied to them.

During the paypal buyout and shortly after paypal came running to adult with open arms. News shows like dateline, 20/20, 60 minutes, and assorted day time talk shows were running rampant with these under aged "adult" sites and on nearly every single fucking one of them was big ass paypal logo's. Ebay wanted no part of that type of publicity at all.

Ebay had been dealing with adult since they first opened up shop. They latter hid the living hell out of it as well, mostly to not catch a ration of shit from the public - yet never killed it.

They could not censor legal content while allowing other legal content so they axed it all, end of story. Both paypal and ebay both knew the level of fraud in adult at the time and they also both knew that online auctions had a much higher fraud percentage, charge back percentages, and such. (and still does).

Yet I guess it is better just to automatically believe what one reads, specially on the internet.

so salon.com lied? lol

I knew that was the story I had heard! Thanks Afterhockmedia! And this time, at the Atlanta show we will definitely speak to each other lol

la times made it up also
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/may...iness/fi-ebay8

From that LA Times article:

"Citing high instances of fraud, the popular online payment service said Wednesday that it would soon stop doing business with Web merchants that sell adult-themed merchandise"

"PayPal drew the ire of some in the adult entertainment industry, who said the service’s move amounted to morality policing by PayPal owner EBay Inc., the widely used online auction house. The PayPal announcement came just days after Wal-Mart Stores Inc. stopped selling three racy magazines – FHM, Maxim and Stuff – because they made some shoppers uncomfortable."

Sounds like they used "fraud" as their cover. Most "fraud" took place back in the mid to late 1990's It was called dialers and was truly a grand ripoff in the hundreds of millions dollars. What "fraud" was Paypal citing back in 2003?

Yep its all a plot. lol Denial isnt just a river. lol

Thanks for sharing your wisdom :winkwink:

No Salon did not lie, lol. Ebay said a few things. Salon reported one of them.

Sometimes you just say the PC thing to the press when your in charge of a big ass company.

I do however like how you once again jumped to a conclusion. Nowhere did I say Salon lied nor did I imply it.

I to lost a lot of money when paypal pulled the plug. Enough in rebills to make myself still sick to this day and it dwarfed what you let alone I lost with ibill (not to mention a few other billers). Paypal was saying one thing, ebay said something else.

How could one not jump to a conclusion when you said :
" Yet I guess it is better just to automatically believe what one reads, specially on the internet."
Also its not like Im looking from the outside. Ive seen the fucking people do.

tony...I can sense you're getting worked up over nothing bro. Paypal is done and gone. I don't believe our people did stuff to cause that. I remember when it happened it was like a shot out of the blue. Most of the bad stuff had happened 5 years previously...I'm not even sure if Paypal existed when the real fraud was happening. xsells are legal and used by many. You can choose to not use them. But for many it is a huge revenue stream. If it wasn't they wouldn't do it. If the members didn't rebill it wouldn't be profitable. Speculation on why it works is just that...speculation. Unless you own a program that's doing millions of dollars in sales then you and I just don't know the reality. We're like the employees at Walmart sitting around in the stockroom bitching about how the multi-billion dollar company is run and trying to decide how it should be done. :)

Yup people have been fucking people.

We also know that the impossible to fucking cancel credit card crap had pretty much already came to an end before paypal came into adult, and what remained was always with merchant accounts that were privately owned.

Charging obscene rates also was pretty much gone in the same fashion as listed above by that time.

Dialers where about the last thing people were fucking customers with at this time and paypal did not deal with that option anyways. When I say fucking I do mean billing wise, I am not speaking of endless pop up console chains from hell that would crash peoples PC's nor toolbars and that crap.

Paypals main adult customer base was small site owners who honestly never have been the type to do serious fraud in the first place, specially when it came down to fucking customers. Of that customer base a large ass chunk of them was the legal underage sites. They did not have the time to stick it out long enough in this business to gather a bunch of the larger sites. Not to mention almost no one was operating with multiple billers and such (no cascades). So the super programs with affiliate systems pretty much ignored paypal, unless it was an option for personal in house traffic. Again mostly because people could not credit the affiliate with an alternate sale and it would of been considered a leak.

Right on the money.

I'm pretty sure though that even without bringing your brother you wouldn't sudently find yourself having bought 2 cars (or more) just because you missed some fine printing or forgot to remove an x :1orglaugh
..and if you did, wouldn't you be pissed ?

A good example though, with car dealers.. With some of them trying to cheat they all get the bad reputation, and now You know they will most likely cheat you so you become more carefull when dealing with them and take your precautions..
Now isn't that just what we are doing too, teaching the surfers to be carefull with pornsites, because they will most likely be cheated ?

Let me ask you.. If you had the chance to cheat a car dealer instead of him cheating you.. would you ?
..and would you feel bad about it.. heck no, why should you.. He'd have cheated you too, right ?

So what are the surfers options..
1) He can join a site and do a chargeback, by default, or at least by any chance of anything looking suspicious.
2) He can stay clear of memberships all together and look for places to get it for free.. Heck, if he's just a little smart he can even join up with like minded and start sharing what he finds.
3) He can combine them and do both.

Think he'll feel bad about it ?
Why should he.. the porn sites would have cheated him too !


Not saying we wouldn't have password sites or upload forums eigther way, But damn.. do we really need to feed them more people ?

Oh if Visa pulls out of adult it doesn't affect you? To think that is impossible to happen with our industries history is very short sighted. It's like your dealership story. If a dealer is fucking customer, the outcome only effects that dealer not the whole auto industry. In adult enough people are fucking the customer it effects all of us. As paypal and amex and the 1% cb ratio effects us all not only the people fucking people. We are down to 1 percent do you think its going to go up?

Ha! I still think your Claudia-Maries alter ego and do not really exist. We shall see. I think I am 0-3 so far this year.

tony and Taass...I'm telling you, car dealerships ALL do backend "product" on you. And it didn't hurt anything. It's a multi-BILLION dollar business. They aren't "cheating" or "shady" or any of those terms you guys are attempting to put on it. It is the way business is done and how profits are made. I don't want to argue with y'all about it. Either you realize it or not. I have a very different experience in my life than perhaps you have had so we see things differently. As does everyone. But the bottom line is...x-sells and/or backend product as it is in retail...has always been a huge way to make money. And Taass, you can repeat that paying for something 3 times as much all day long...but the fact is they are only paying for a ONE DOLLAR trial. Or even a FREE one. It's their choice to keep it or not. When you bought a car...please believe me you paid 4 to 10 thousand dollars (depending on the price range of the car) in b.s. "product" that you did NOT need. If a member forgot all about a x-sell and was billed for a solid year...he still would only be out less that a fraction of what that car dealer did to you. Doesn't that make any sense to you? It's common business practice. But...having said that...if any industry can get burnt for doing what others do with no problem...it's us in adult. :(

Isn't this thread about CLEARLY MARKED cross sales?
I am pretty sure I have seen a few of 12clicks cross sale options on other peoples join pages. They were mind numbingly obvious. Like wham in your face style. Honestly what I expect in a cross sale and have no problem with.

There is nothing hide on the paper work you sign when you buy a car. They can try whatever they like but you go over the contract and can say no. if they wont take it off you can get up and walk out.They dont have below the line you sign more things you weren't aware of and dont find out about til you get your payment book.

You can no to anything they throw at you.
Also this had nothing to do with 12 clicks and I commended him. This started when someone said something about saying most.

When I went to meet Claudia and Robbie. I never saw him she kept saying he was in the shower. lol

That's what you think, because that's how they "whack" you. They take you into the finance managers office and sit you down and I am telling you the honest to god truth. You do say "yes" to stuff that they mislead you into thinking you have to have. That is their job. It's acheived a different way is the only difference. Using some of the "drama logic" of GFY, that finance manager is nothing more than a slick talking con artist who convinced you that you needed extended warranty, oil changes, etc. etc And each charge is only "X" amount extra per month on your payments. And then of course when you add them up, they are THOUSANDS of dollars. And then when you add in the fact that they just charged you interest when they added them to your car payment...you just got screwed.

Bro, it's a running joke in high dollar retail.

We are talking about x-sells that cost ONE DOLLAR and sometimes are FREE. And then if a surfer really is dumb enough that he didn't want it and missed it...well, I defy you to show me ONE program owner that will not refund their money no questions asked. Wiseman told me he would not only refund their money, but then would give them a free 6 month membership after that just to make things right.

How do you think the big boys stay in business? Everybody can scream all this drama all day long. But numbers and money do the real talking. If it wasn't profitable then nobody would do it. And it couldn't BE profitable if the customers really hated it like everyone says. They would ALL chargeback and that would be the end of it all.

Damn guys...

I'm really just a bot who does as tony404 commands. He has programmed me to argue points with him on GFY to keep things interesting around here.

Well said bot lol

Ron's implementation of cross sales is very smart and consumer friendly. Perhaps we should compile a list of programs that do them with consent and without.

Brad

Robbie I hope your right and Im wrong.

<Robot voice> No tony404, I hope I'm wrong and you're right</Robot voice>

I really can't follow your logic here..
..on one hand you are talking about car dealers assraping, playing tricks and cheat you for THOUSANDS of dollars in bullshit charges, heck you even bring your brother to make sure they don't cheat you, so it aparently pisses you off.
..now on the other hand you use those excact same car dealers for justifying crosssales, except now it's okay ????

I'll agree with you that "When you bought a car...please believe me you paid xx?$ in b.s. "product" that you did NOT need" ..sure if your a smoker you want an ashtray, if you don't smoke, you'll have payed for an ashtray that you don't need etc..
If anyway related to porn, this would compare to you joining for the main movie content, but not being interested in the photos or the bonus feeds.. But can't really see it comparing to crosssales in any way.

Crosssales imo. compares better to you buying a trailer with your new car..
Eigther because you didn't notice a trailer sale added to the contract.. or because you forgot to tell the car seller that you didn't want a trailer (depending on the type of crosssale)

A very well written post with a lot of truth to it. My review sites label each reviewed paysite as CrossSales "None" "Unchecked" "PreChecked" with a simple Faq ? explaining in very basic terms what a surfer might understand. I have been very careful to avoid saying one is "bad" or another is "good", each is shown in black text not red warning text. The purpose is to inform the surfer not to convince or dissuade the surfer from making a purchase based on the xsell alone.

I welcome input from program owners regarding the wording of the FAQ. I am also in the process of manually checking join pages on every program reviewed by WebmasterScore.com Each is being properly tagged with "None" "Unchecked" or "PreChecked" so that affiliates can sort through programs and find the right program to match their particular traffic. Again, I am neither for nor against honest xsells and I fully understand an xsell can be both prechecked AND honest or "none" and criminally dishonest.

If any program owner feels the 'tag' assigned to their program review is incorrect I welcome your feedback. I am manually updating 100s of reviews, xsells change often and an unintentional inaccuracy is possible. Everything that can be done will be done to ensure the accuracy of all of my reviews as quickly as possible.

For the record, 12clickscash is one of the programs I have checked and everything in the post above appears to be absolutely true.

As a side note, I do find it hard to understand why an affiliate RevShare link code would have xsells on it or why an affiliate would choose to send traffic on a RevShare basis to a program that does not offer a percentage of that revenue or an xsell-free link... or the very least a PPS alternative. Hopefully someone can explain to me what I'm missing and how doing so would make sense?

One thing I have seen and I can't for the life of me figure out why more programs don't do it... is an xsell "package discount" where a site costs 30 to join and offers another site that is usually 30 to join for $25 instead. In that way you'd be selling 2 sites, the surfer is saving $5 vs having bought each of them separately and the xsell becomes an added value rather than a potential scam. A program that had package discount xsells and gave affiliates a 50% cut of the main sale along with a smaller % of any xsells on their traffic could actually create added value for their own program, the xsell program, the affiliate and the surfer.

A win/win/win/win no ?

Great post Relentless :thumbsup

..and definetly a great point too with package discount.. if the customer was actually offered a choice of getting a good deal and all benefitted from it that would be quite something else.

you're welcome princess

shut up mike no one wants to hear your opinions.. stupid affiliate

I think there is two camps.

1. Affiliates are already over paid and site owners really are getting shafted when you look at what they do and what affiliates do. Yet everyone should want to increase retention anyways and most would put more money into their sites anyways with better content, more shoots, etc.

2. Those that think that camp 1 is full of shit and without affiliates they would not have sales anyways. Affiliates always equal free money and they are sick and tired of people fucking them. They also want better retention as long as it does not effect their paycheck.


Ok I may have injected some humor and or sarcasm into this post.

Bro, I can't make you see what I'm trying to say, and it doesn't really matter. I never said that what car dealers do: "pisses me off" I said it's business as usual. And I have an inroad to save me thousands of dollars when I buy vehicles. Car dealerships are the ones who get pissed when I do that. LOL!

And my point was...in case you're still misunderstanding me...ALL businesses have "backend" A x-sell is just a ONE DOLLAR charge for god's sake, a full membership to a website is about the cost of half a tank of gas for 30 days of 24/7 access. This whole thing is nothing but fucking drama.

The real players could give two shits what any of us think. And the few guys who are both affiliate (for over 10 years) and paysite owner (a little over one year) who DO give our opinions are told we must be idiots because we don't comprehend how a one dollar x-sell with an email and a way to cancel and a way to get your money refunded is assraping.

I don't see that at all. And I don't see how all these smart guys on here can say that they didn't even realize they have been promoting x-sell sites for a decade and it's just now a problem?

We have to agree to disagree my friend. As I said earlier, your experiences in this business have led you to a firm belief in one way. Mine in another. :)

very well thought out post ron, good thread