If anyone is interested in the national debt and how it got to the point it is, you must check out this movie. I watched the full version and it is stunning, scary stuff.

http://www.iousathemovie.com/

Once again, amen dude. And I don't think Obama's retarded healthcare plan is going to pass. Not at the cost of economic collapse.

So I called the liberal out for being stupid, and his response is "no ur stupid!!" Point proven.

Proof has been posted, the dates can be posted... you can look it up. AIG, the banks, the auto Industry - Was ALL done while Bush was president.

Right, and the point was that OBAMA bailed them out, which was what I was saying. You embarrassed yourself by trying to go on the defensive.


Another liberal who's a walking contradiction.




ROFL. So you support civil unions but not marriage? Good lord, where do you draw the line and why?




Actually dumbass, those are liberal/conserative beliefs. Once again, your ignorance is obvious. Liberals are a minority. You lose.

I've seen it, read the book, it's very interesting stuff.

Ah yes, I was waiting on the incompetent liberal to claim that I've been stuck on Fox News. In that case let me use your logic. "I see you've been stuck on CNN". Let me guess, "CNN ISNT BIASED!!"

Ah yes, FOX confuses the sheep, but CNN tells it like it is. Fox creates pretty charts(which is concrete evidence), while CNN tells it like it is. Could you be any more retarded?

No, you have no idea what you're talking because you are dumb. You just happen to be a liberal to prove my point.
Obama bailed out AIG, Obama bailed out the auto industry, Obama bailed out the banks. Your only response is "NO LOL IT WAS BUSH'S FAULT!!"

Here we go again... You not actually posting anything but spew.


If Bushed signed them, Obama didn't bail them out.. Damn, you're thick.

Because you like to repeat yourself, again with no proof.. I will post it, again for you.

http://www.propublica.org/special/government-bailouts



So a conservative doesn't support people choosing to live together?

Why would I care who lives together? If I'm right or left?

Living together and marriage are very different.


You're so fucked in the head... It makes no difference if my "people" views are liberal and my Gov views are Conservative.. I align with at least a little, with every party.


What does any of that have to do with Bush doing almost ALL of the bailouts?

Democrats and Republicans are almost the same thing these days, they're all owned by Corporations and Lobbyists. It's 'Good Cop/Bad Cop' becuase they're all on the same team. It's one big joke/scam.

As for Liberals vs. Conservatives: Let's try and be decent PEOPLE and stop pointing fingers at our fellow Americans, saying 'YOU'RE wrong!" "No, YOU'RE wrong!". OK? That's EXACTLY what the people in power want: us squabbling amongst ourselves while they fuck everything up.

Get smart people, and save every penny and stop buying useless shit at Walmart.

Peace.

Cool, I watch CNN now? I don't even get CNN, but I watch it?

Hell, I don't even need to watch the news to prove you wrong, that's sad.



Dang, you can't stop from lying can you?

Here's to proving you wrong, again..

http://www.propublica.org/special/government-bailouts

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20081013/hayden2
What did Bush sign exactly?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/wo....17704414.html
Who asked WHO for the bailouts?
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/09/14
http://patterico.com/2008/09/15/obam...11-bankruptcy/

Too easy





Conservatives don't support gay marriage. Nice try though.




ROFL. Now it's almost all? Which one is it moron? You're one incompetent human being.

Why do these threads always devolve into a Left -vs- Right show down? Don't you fools know by now that there is no Left or Right anymore? Both sides are now batting for the same team! The Left -vs- Right media propagated lie is designed to keep you ensnared and fighting with each other while they rape you. Please stop wrapping your sense of self, and your identity up in a political party. It will do you no good. Look at the issues, not the political party. The agenda from the top is marching ever forward regardless of which puppet they install in office.

As for gold, it should be used to ?store? your wealth so it doesn?t evaporate in the coming dollar collapse. Closer to when the shit hits the fan, you should be breaking up, or purchasing your gold / silver in smaller units that can be used to barter and trade with. Guns, ammo, seeds, short wave radios, medicine, batteries, canned goods, razors, cigarettes (even if you don?t smoke), ..etc are all good things to start stalking up on.

But..You haven't proven me wrong. It's the other way around.





You've already been owned:)

Yep, far toooo easy...

Dated Oct 2008 - Opinion article.


November 11, 2008 - Quoted for truth "automakers to tap into the $700 billion bailout fund" ---- A fund already setup by Bush.

This is easy..


Umm... It doesn't say Obama asked anyone... It says "A year after"... Obama supports it.

Article from Sept 2008

Yep... zero proof posted. Again, Obama did not do the bailouts.






I never said they did..

Ah yes, I already said that. I forgot you like to repeat me when getting owned.




Suggested by Obama:)




ROFL this is way too easy.



Actually..He did. Unless you like to play semantics with the word "do". Since embarrassing you is an easy task, i'll play your game. Obama initiated the bailouts. Obama created the stimulus plans. Both were retarded for our economy.



I'm curious as to whether you even know the definitions of liberal/conservative.

Wow, I suggest someone shoots you in the head? Does that mean I did it?



Obama 100% did not initiate any Bailouts.. a suggestion, is not action.


And for Stimulus Plans... you knock it? Are you going to go against Economists, people left/right in the Gov, Fox, and the media that are now saying.. hummmmm, it's actually, working? Perfectly, no... working, totally.

I mean, it's not like Bush and crew didn't screw Americans out of money they owned. But it's BAD if Obama dishes it back out to the people, saves some homes, actually tries to build our Country... NO MONEY FOR HOME - But plenty for war...

Fucking stupid.


Clearly you are to fucking stupid to realize it makes no difference. Other than to you, trying to twist an argument you lost into something else.

Sorry, but you said Bush DID it. When I put you into a corner you started playing word games.




How fucking stupid are you, seriously?


Yes I am going to go against it. Working as an economist for the government does NOT mean you're intelligent. In fact I provided a concise argument about how everything is going to shit a few weeks ago. I'll dig it up for you if I'm convinced that you can read. Here's a hint. It's not working at ALL.

They both fucked up. Except Obama is taking it to another level. But I'm glad you can be so objective. ROFL..(Sarcasm)




And as usual, I say something and this incompetent reject repeats it right back to me. Gotta love parrots:)

Just as an aside.... here's an impassioned plea from a fan of formal logic: when you guys engage in these otherwise wonderfully entertaining and spirited exchanges, can you please stop insisting that you are using "logic," or at the very least concede that you are employing some odd manner of logic that has no rules or structure?

Seriously -- most people wouldn't know real, formal logic if it walked up and bit them on the ass. A few pointers:

* Real logic does not abide by ad hominem attacks. Your argument isn't aided by making personal attacks against the person you are arguing with, or by repeating those attacks with slight variation, or by the speaker responding in kind when an ad hominem attack is leveled against him.

* Real logic recognizes that ad populum appeals are invalid. If you are delusional, or wrong, it doesn't matter how many people share your delusion, or how many other people are wrong in the same way you are -- you are still wrong and/or delusional.

* In order for logic to work, and for opposing sides to come to a consensus regarding the proper logical conclusion, there must be some measure of facts stipulated to begin with. When two opposing sides cannot come to an accord on something as simple as the date when a measure was proposed, and/or a date it went into action, it's probably best just to part company right then and there and give up on hashing out the argument. You aren't going to progress towards a conclusion if you can't even agree on the underlying facts that serve as the starting point for the discussion.

This list could go on for quite some time, so I'll just leave it at that.

My point is, please, for the love of all that is decent and good and true, leave my poor, beloved friend logic out of your web-forum-based ranting and raving, fuming and flaming. He didn't ask to be invoked, and he's pretty sure you don't have the first clue who he is. :winkwink:

Thanks,
- Q.

i agree with all the posts that this is not a left vs right thing. its a fact that both parties are gutter whores to lobbyists. republicans cant blame dems when most of the deficits & corporate malfeasance happened because they turned over the government to the megacorporations. & dems have their own demons with unions, trial lawyers & an undying love of government to solve all problems.

Both parties suck balls. This country is slowly turning into the rich versus the poor. & the excesses of unfettered capitalism are driving the middle class into the hands of the government loving dems. Then the dems will over-reach with public options & government programs to subsidize appliance purchases, & the people will go right back to the repubs.

just go out & buy guns/ammo while there are still guns in the store. when the shit hits the fan, it will be too late.

Best place to auction a domain?
 

oops, I really need to get some sleep :)

I love logical posts... thanks for the incite Q.

sure blame it on the BLACK man...the mess he inherited just as he took office.....stop your being silly.....this started on Bush 2's 2'ed term or did you FORGET about that one. :helpme

in addition,
this country, as a capitalist free democracy, can only run properly when the wealthiest & most powerful people behave responsibly. we cannot rely on the government to ensure AIG executives keep the financial system from melting down. there are already plenty of laws, & madoff happened anyway. & the way the rich & the corporations behave, thinking only of themselves & shareholders instead of american workers, it makes me think the rich deserve an 80% tax rate. if they are going to kill the middle class to enrich themselves, there may as well be no rich people at all.

We need to dig up reagan & get back to the basics in this country.

No one quoted me so fuck it.

Reagan started the whole thing. Fuck Reagan.

Wonder how interesting this thread will be NEXT FRIDAY when Michael Moore's CAPITALISM: A LOVE STORY hits theaters?

Fuck Clinton and Obama, too, and Bush, and Bush, and Carter, and Ford, and NIXON, and Johnson, and Kennedy, and Eisenhower, and Truman, and Roosevelt.

Warren Harding, however, rocks.

maybe teddy roosevelt was a better example than reagan. but that goes back pretty far.

Heheh -- just couldn't resist busting balls a bit. All posted in good fun, of course.

A few years back, I wrote a piece for YNOT examining 'board logic.' That was good fun to write, for sure... hopefully, at least a little fun to read, as well.

This is actually incorrect. An ad hominem attack is defined as an attack on the person rather than an argument. My insults to this tool aren't ad hominem because I'm providing an argument AND calling him retarded.

Right, it's called an appeal to the majority.

This is tricky when you're arguing someone who constantly switches positions and uses irrelevant misdirection.

I can play this game. Bush inherited clinton's piss poor bank policies. See how stupid shirking blame is? It doesn't matter what Obama inherited, it matters what he's doing with it. If you want to use double standards because you're too stupid to be objective, then don't post.

What you people who always come out of the woodwork in tough times and predict doom fail to realize is that a boom time can totally right the ship and there is always a boom period whether it be fueled by tech, housing, or whatever, it always comes because people are always looking to make money.

The tech boom of the 90's totally erased all of our deficits and got the whole country back in the black. People and companies got rich, paid more in taxes, and the budget was balanced.

There will be another boom period within the next 5 years and it will right the ship again. Then it will bust and all you doomsayers will come out again talking about how I should buy guns or start planting my own food or whatever because the end has finally come.

People think they sound like they have the inside line when they predict these doomsday scenarios but it makes you look like the weirdos that think the world is coming to end on a certain numerical date or because certain current events were predicted in the book of revelations.

Relax everybody.

I hope your right & im wrong. what i see different today is that the middle class is getting killed. all my 30 something friends, either husband & wife are both working, or one or both got laid off. The rich will always do well. thats true going back to the romans. But if there is no consumer to make the boom happen, there will be no boom. & the middle class is taking it in the ass from both high taxes & corporations that are gouging them & offshoring their jobs. Banks, insurance companies, oil companies, hospitals, they are charging absurd rates for their services. all these industries are oligopolies. there was a time when banks paid 4-5% interest on savings, 12-16% on the credit card, but those days are gone. a boom cannot happen when the worker pays 40% in taxes, 30% on the credit card, & lost their job to a foreign worker. The status quo cannot last.

Fair enough, although I'd say you did a bit of both (attacking the argument and the person), and there wasn't much of an attempt on the part of either party involved to agree upon any facts. :winkwink:

I was more poking fun at the phenomenon of people invoking logic in pissing threads than trying to make a point about you and Doc's exchange in particular. Carry on with the fun and never mind me and my "outside agitating," as it were.

Something that has happened over the last 20 years is that real wages for the middle class have not gone up much, but the prices of many things have. Right now the average wage in the US is about $16 per hour while the average home costs around 170K. That means the average person can no longer afford the average home unless they want to charge everything else in their lives and pay small monthly payments. Of course that ends up with people drowning in debt and if something happens like a layoff or illness they often end in bankruptcy.

So like you say the status quo has to change before there can be any real long term growth. The problem is that any major change is going to mean people will have to sacrifice things in their lives and many Americans don't like being told that they have to give anything up so change doesn't come easy

This is either ignorance, blind optimism, or both. We didn't have the various deficits in the 90s that we have now. We didn't have the extreme devaluation of the dollar that we have now. We didn't have the credit/financial crisis that we have now. We didn't have the real estate bubble bursting that we have now. We aren't producing anything. We are expanding the money supply(thanks Obama), and creating artificial demand through various failed stimulus programs and tax incentives. The doomsday scenario is the only logical scenario we have left. Unless this country starts producing more and consuming less, it's going to be over fairly quickly, and then new economic ideals will be created.

Or perhaps you guys are both wrong.

It doesn't look to me like we are in any shape to be expecting a boom. By almost all measure we are still in the shitter.

The point I would argue against most of the bears in this thread is that they all seem to expect stag-flation or hyperinflation which leads them to their pessimism. They almost all favor buying gold, oil, agriculturals, etc. They are all forecasting a further collapse of the Dollar.

Perhaps what we are on the verge of entering into is the next leg of the deflationary spiral that we have clear signs of already. In this scenario, the dollar, following a long decline since 2002, actually is the only place to be while all assets collapse around it??

Cash is King in a deflation. :2 cents:

so where can we all make money in the future?

You are exactly right. This is what I and the rest of the "pessimists" are expecting. However we are leaning towards the dollar losing reserve currency status and hyperinflation hitting. I am in favor of everything you just said..And it's all looking that way too.

I am guilty of being an optimist so no argument there. But it comes from the fact that the doomsday scenarios never come true no matter what. Whether it be that gangs or drug lords would take over, or Japan would own all of America, or the world will freeze over.....It never comes true because when you have hundreds of millions people all trying to make a better life for themselves, they end up coming up with solutions and dragging the rest of the world with them. When countries fail, they go out with a whimper, not a bang. If America fails, it will be a slow decline over decades and decades, not some giant implosion.

Not to mention, it's the optimists who are at this very minute creating the technology and the new industries that will give everyone a job again in the coming years, not the people running around saying the world has come to end and there is nothing we can do about it.

Government will always waste money, big business will always rip everyone off. The only thing we can do is make more money. Every decade or so something pops up that makes everyone so much money it covers up all the mistakes. It's the way the system works.

That's just it. Blind optimism isn't meant to be logical nor based on anything logical. It's for people who can't fathom a doomsday scenario. There is no special technology that will give us 50 trillion dollars to get out of debt. There is no special formula. There is only Obama and the moronic keynesian economics with their fundamentally flawed principles. There's nowhere to go but down.

The part you did not quote is where the contrast in our outlook lies...

I think the near term threat is deflation, not inflation let alone hyperinflation.

The reason is that there exists staggeringly more dollar denominated debt than cash dollars (about a 50 Trillion dollar difference). This enormous amount of debt, as it implodes, is killing the ability to inflate -- despite the FED's efforts.

A reduction in the aggregate value of dollar-denominated debt is deflation, which is what we have going on now. At some point, the value of credit will contract to where it can be sustained by new production. When this happens, your scenario will be real.

I just think deflation has to run its course first and we are not there yet.

Bump to revisit the idea of a dollar collapse. Here is the US dollar:

http://charts3.barchart.com/chart.asp?sym=$DXY&data=A&jav=adv&vol=Y&divd=Y&evn t=adv&grid=Y&code=BSTK&org=stk&fix=

And here is a long term chart of the CRB Index:

http://charts3.barchart.com/custom/stocks/2037.gif

Deflation or Inflation??