I was looking for a job as a 24/7 troll, but that one was filled.

(let me know if you quit, I will apply again)

He was also the guy that said "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". If more people did for themselves and didn't milk the system, that would be less taxes all of us would pay, and a lot more money pumped into the economy making us a much stronger country. Instead we are going in the wrong direction, giving more and more and more to the people who leach off of this country and bring it all down. "free money" should never be given out, everyone should earn, one way or another EVERY penny they get in assistance, unless they are truley dissabled or already trying as hard as they can and need a hand up.

see my other posts where i clarified my use of the word lazy. I never assumed that everyone who isn't successfull = lazy. I was pretty clear who I am talking about.

FYI, i grow up for a good portion of my life poor with a single parent, I busted my ass for every penny I ever made, never cheated no one and never got any assistance. I worked myself through college. Don't be so quick to think I had a silver spoon in my mouth, quite the opposite. I know it's harder for some than others, but everyone can do it. And I've seen a lot of people that choose not too and are rewarded for just collecting checks and being irresponsible.

There are people who need and deserve help, there are people who straight up fraud the system, there are people who choose to spend their money on nicer things (or illegal things) and not spend it on health care, and then there are people are irresponsible and in poverty but keep having children. those are the facts. what are the statistics for how many are in each group? I don't think anyone knows exactly.

irresponsibility without accountably breeds unproductivity. And if you reward people on top of that, it just makes it even worse.

I've repeated my points about 10x and am done with this thread and clarified what I meant by "lazy" as well as included a lot of other types of people not just the ones who keep having kids they can't afford or do drugs... I have family that don't have a pot to piss in but they keep having kids. I don't understand the lack of responsibilty, they are broke with 1 kid so they have 3 more and end up on wellfare because they can't afford them. It happens a lot. I bet if they weren't given wellfare, wic and all the other govt aide, and instead they had to work 100 hours a week to pay for those kids they would have been more responsible. It is easy to be irresponsible when you know the govt will bail you out.

People will take the parts of my posts they want to see depending on their views and ignore everything else I said. If they think I am calling all poor people lazy drug users, if that is what you people got out of everything I had to say, then our country is more worst off than I thought.

If you mean donate it all to a charity, or individual cases, that actually just perpetuates the problem. People then think charities are there to save the unfortunate, when in reality they can only assist a fraction of the cases, and their funding is unreliable. It alleviates society's guilt undeservedly. Universal healthcare can only be organized effectively through good government.

What I am doing personally is transitioning my wealth and family to a more moral country. So instead of bringing wealth into the USA, I'll be draining it out. That's unfortunate, but I've seen enough. I have already moved a significant amount of money, bought property there, and now we're just waiting for an elderly pet to pass before emigrating. I'll definitely miss a lot of stuff here, but it's a conscience thing. Currently I don't feel good about where my taxes go, and where they don't go. The amount is irrelevant, but by the time you add up federal, state, self employment, etc then it might actually save me money to move to a "socialist" country.

Most capitalist countries provide universal government run healthcare, and their rich still lead very privileged lives full of all the same excesses we have here in America. Unfortunately some people never feel enough is enough. Personally, I have zero sympathy for someone more worried about whether they can afford that 3rd home or 6th car while the people who work for them go untreated. This strawman argument that somehow the rich paying a few percent higher means they'll give up their successful business and wait tables for a living instead is absurd. The gap between rich and poor isn't that small. Infact, it's so massive most Americans can't even see the other side of it. The top 1% control 42% of the wealth. Our rich can afford it, especially after we reinvest all the money we're currently wasting on our corrupt private insurance system. In practice, the difference would not impact the average millionaire lifestyle in any noticeable way. Unless they made that money by denying healthcare.

The average cost of universal healthcare in most countries is about 10% of GDP. Any civilized society can afford that, and again it's cheaper than our current system (16%). That's what Americans need to understand; they are paying more for less. And it's a fatal ripoff.

That is complete corporate apologist bullshit. The vast majority without insurance do not have it because they can not afford it, because the employer doesn't offer it, or because they have preexisting conditions. At least this weak ass reform bill is supposed to take care of the latter. And prevent them from dumping customers as soon as they get seriously sick. That's how they make so much money, by denying care to people who paid their premiums for years. This isn't just about the uninsured. The fools who thought the system worked just never had it put to the test. They didn't know about lifetime limits and all the other exclusions. And by the time you discover you're not as covered as you thought, it's too late, and noone else would cover you, and you're bankrupt or dead. And it's all legal, so you (or your grieving family) can't even successfully sue. It's a scam.

And then we have the repulsive issue of losing coverage when you lose your job, accepting shit working conditions out of fear of your family losing coverage. It's a system built for slaves.

not better or worse than in most other countries around here. probably a bit worse on the country side. but if you want work you'll find something. or you start your own venture. and guess what: if you're successful you'll be as rich as anywhere else. corporate tax is 24% btw - and you can take your profit out of the company for a 15% flat tax without paying additional personal taxes.

the problem here in Czech Rep. is that 40 years of REAL socialism has corrupted a lot of people and they have a lot to catch up to.


the thing is that 99% have no clue what real socialism is - the former GDR (Eastern Germany) was a socialistic country - and surely no one wants anything like that anymore. but living in a society that takes care of the less fortunate ones (even if a few misuse the system) is something I wouldn't want to give up.

About time you realize that ...

Stopped "debating-answering" the Demon for those exact same resons.
Sticking to a one-liner once in a while to show how dumb that guy is ...

This argument makes absolutely no sense....The lazy are rewarded every day RIGHT NOW!!!

I don't think it's FAIR that one can work hard to live in a neighborhood while a broke muthafucka lives next door with a government subsidized Section 8 certificate.

I don't think it's FAIR that people are struggling to pay their mortgage while an adult with a bunch of kids who failed in life gets a new house built for them free and clear by people like Habitat For Humanity....

I don't think it's FAIR that women are allowed to make baby after baby and get FREE MEDICAID for both the children AND the mother while other single working mothers who are barely making it can't get insurance.....

I don't think it's fair for a woman to have child after child and have a full refrigerator of food purchased with food stamps while other folks struggle to eat ramen.

I don't think the child support system is FAIR.....

There's a LOT of shit that I don't think is FAIR....But guess what? LIFE AIN'T FAIR!!.......And since you're so "educated" yourself, you would have learned in Economics of the "trickle down effect".....So just because some lazy fucks will benefit does not mean that hard working honest american taxpayers have to suffer because YOU don't think it's fair...

If you don't like how shit is taxed, take it up with the IRS, who has been backed by both Democrat and Republican presidents alike.....And only a fucking moron would think that everyone who needs healthcare and can't afford it are doing drugs....That's fucking idiotic.

So is thinking that everyone who can't afford health care, can't afford it because it's the fault of outside forces.

Once again, Directfiesta proving nobody takes him seriously on this forum and that people only respond to this simple buffoon out of sympathy.

I said because of DOING DRUGS....Don't pick one sentence out of that whole diatribe I just wrote and then ask a totally unrelated question....

THAT'S idiotic....

Yeah tax the wealthy more ... that has been proven to work.

Oh wait ... no it has the opposite effect .. and while you are at it how about taxing business more too ... bound to convince more business to set up in your country. :)

I think you completely missed the point. If you're going to generalize like you did in that sentence, I'm going to generalize as well.

+10 people who read something then twist it around to something that wasn't there.


lesson learned. if you post more than 2 sentences on GFY, people can't comprehend what you wrote. Go back and point out where I said " that everyone who needs healthcare and can't afford it are doing drugs " you might as well be arguing with the wall because the wall had a better chance of saying that then I did. But like I said previously:
obviously the "drug users" part struck a cord with you and you remembered just that part. All the other situations I mentioned where I feel people abuse the system, you just ignored that, what you got out what I said was poor = drug users lol. Never mind the fact that from the start I separated out the people who actually are poor and need help and was only talking about the ones who don't deserve the help. :upsidedow

I am staying out of this argument but will bump it for ya.

Wrong....I picked apart your whole argument of what you thought was FAIR by giving numerous examples of how LIFE isn't fair....I just threw in the drug users part as an added bonus....

I didn't generalize shit if I'm quoting someone else when I'm making the point.

Yes, you did. Keep trying though.:thumbsup

"Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom." We have heard that many times. What is also the price of freedom is the toleration of imperfections. If everything that is wrong with the world becomes a reason to turn more power over to some political savior, then freedom is going to erode away, while we are mindlessly repeating the catchwords of the hour, whether "change," "universal health care" or "social justice."

If we can be so easily stampeded by rhetoric that neither the public nor the Congress can be bothered to read, much less analyze, bills making massive changes in medical care, then do not be surprised when life and death decisions about you or your family are taken out of your hands-- and out of the hands of your doctor-- and transferred to bureaucrats in Washington.

Let's go back to square one. The universe was not made to our specifications. Nor were human beings. So there is nothing surprising in the fact that we are dissatisfied with many things at many times. The big question is whether we are prepared to follow any politician who claims to be able to "solve" our "problem."

If we are, then there will be a never ending series of "solutions," each causing new problems calling for still more "solutions." That way lies a never-ending quest, costing ever increasing amounts of the taxpayers' money and-- more important-- ever greater losses of your freedom to live your own life as you see fit, rather than as presumptuous elites dictate.

Ultimately, our choice is to give up Utopian quests or give up our freedom. This has been recognized for centuries by some, but many others have not yet faced that reality, even today. If you think government should "do something" about anything that ticks you off, or anything you want and don't have, then you have made your choice between Utopia and freedom.

Back in the 18th century, Edmund Burke said, "It is no inconsiderable part of wisdom, to know much of an evil ought to be tolerated" and "I must bear with infirmities until they fester into crimes."

But today's crusading zealots are not about to tolerate evils or infirmities. If insurance companies are not behaving the way some people think they should, then their answer is to set up a government bureaucracy to either control insurance companies or replace them.

If doctors, hospitals or pharmaceutical companies charge more than some people feel like paying, then the answer is price control. The actual track record of politicians, government bureaucracies, or price control is of no interest to those who think this way.

Politicians are already one of the main reasons why medical insurance is so expensive. Insurance is designed to cover risks but politicians are in the business of distributing largesse. Nothing is easier for politicians than to mandate things that insurance companies must cover, without the slightest regard for how such additional coverage will raise the cost of insurance.

If insurance covered only those things that most people are most concerned about-- the high cost of a major medical expense-- the price would be much lower than it is today, with politicians piling on mandate after mandate.

Since insurance covers risks, there is no reason for it to cover annual checkups, because it is known in advance that annual checkups occur once a year. Automobile insurance does not cover oil changes, much less the purchase of gasoline, since these are regular recurrences, not risks.

But politicians in the business of distributing largesse-- especially with somebody else's money-- cannot resist the temptation to pass laws adding things to insurance coverage. Many of those who are pushing for more government involvement in medical care are already talking about extending insurance coverage to "mental health"-- which is to say, giving shrinks and hypochondriacs a blank check drawn on the federal treasury.

There are still some voices of sanity today, echoing what Edmund Burke said long ago. "The study of human institutions is always a search for the most tolerable imperfections," according to Prof. Richard Epstein of the University of Chicago. If you cannot tolerate imperfections, be prepared to kiss your freedom goodbye.

-Thomas Sowell

Quoted the entire thing because he's absolutely brilliant... Read it and continue the debate!

It's a fine balance between socialism and capitalism...

Point is, there will always be people who are not able to take care of themselves. Even if you threw 300k at them they would not know how to survive a year. It's the result of "civilization". We keep the sick and stupid alive for as long as possible, even if that means making them suffer more and more.

This society as a whole will keep producing people who cannot sustain themself, no matter what. The question here is, do you want to take care of those people?

This sounds awfully like an excerpt from "Knowledge and Decisions." Very good read, complicated though.

It's a loose loose argument.

I know everyone here knows eveything but I thought at least most of them could at least read what I posted instead of making up shit to try to support their arguments.

I know better than to waste my time on politics, I was just frustrated at the lack of responsibility (among other things) in this country and how the people who screw up just keep getting rewarded for doing so. And everyone in the middle would rather rape the rich to throw money at the poor, so they can feel better about themselves for "doing the right thing" but the vast majority of them wouldn't have voted for a bill like that if they realized they would be paying for it too.

I agree life isn't fair. But this isn't a "life isn't fair because I got hit by a drunk driver " fair. Or " I got cancer" fair. These are policies and laws voted by the people of this country, the things (taxes, laws) that could be changed and have changed back and forth over time.

You wrongly saying that I believe every poor person = drug users, whether an added bonus or not, is just retarded. You know I didn't say that, or meant that.

LMAO quoting, find where I said every poor person = a drug user. please quote me LOL. you make up shit then say you quoted me.

The underlying cause of the medical problems in this country is people's diet/exercise. More and more people have computer jobs and sit there all day (*raises hand*) and don't make up for the difference in cal expenditure in other ways. Then they eat shit for food, get no nutrition whatsoever, blow up into a fat ass, and we wonder why we have such a rampant obesity, diabetes, heart, cancer, etc. problem today.

Health care costs so much because so many more people need it today than in the past. High demand so everyone can raise their prices and suck people dry. If the costs of health care weren't so bad, even if insurance companies made a pretty penny being the middlemen, insurance premiums wouldn't be nearly as bad and people could afford it. This will amount to fixing a gunshot wound with a band-aid, and I've already said enough about how the economy has been in a shithole and should have been his primary focus as it is.

I give props at least to Pepsi and Kraft, who both recently came out and said they're going to be reducing sodium in their products. Hopefully more follow suit and the underlying issue here can be fixed eventually.

QFT

www.foodmatters.tv

The problem is that your values are whatever lobbyists tell you they are.

Great post :thumbsup

Someone tell this woman she's lazy and shouldn't have had kids she can't afford:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/9/...Depression.jpg

And while you're at it, tell her to shell out hundreds of dollars a month for health coverage that may well be denied at the most crucial time instead of putting that money towards feeding her family.

Translation: I can't think for myself so I can't come up with a valid argument so I'm going to tell him that the lobbyists dictate his values for him and that will effectively end the conversation.

Nice try Kevsh, back to the drawing board.

I NEVER said that YOU said that every poor person = a drug user....Where in the fuck did you get that idea from?

You really are an idiot aren't you. Read your fucking last line you posted above and you'll see

"And only a fucking moron would think that everyone who needs healthcare and can't afford it are doing drugs....That's fucking idiotic."


You win the bonehead of 2010 award.

Owned....

Fuck you.

And your going to pay for it one way or another.

My best friend John, twenty-two years old, in perfect health, failed to wake up one morning nearly twenty years. He didn't have health insurance. He woke up four days, four operations on his brain, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt later. He has water on the brain, and since then he's had dozens of operations on his brain.

And this was just the start of his problems. He's racked up over a million dollars in medical bills, and being as he's 100% disabled he has no hope in paying any of it back. He's been through bankruptcy twice, and still has more medical bills pending. He can't get a debit card because he's so fucking broke.

By the way, thanks for taking care of his medical bills. Because he's default on millions of dollars of medical bills, our healthcare insurance went up. But wait, it gets better yet - Because the past twenty years he's been disabled. That's right - we even pay for his fucking handicap license plates.

Lazy? Is he lazy? That's fucking irrelevant. Because when he's laid up for six months unable to fucking leave his bed while the doctors debate if it's worth the risk to open up his brain again, it's completely fucking irrelevant.

Pay for it now, or pay a lot more later skippy.

Emotional argument #128294394839. Why can't these people be rational? My brother has diabetes... Do you think him or myself are going to change our beliefs just because his situation is unfortunate? Grow up.

Hey Rochard,

I feel ya. It sucks for sure and I don't think your friend is lazy. Neither do some of the cretins posting in here. They're just not sharp enough to articulate their side of the debate. You can't really be angry at them for their ignorance.

What the other side is trying to say is that health care is not a right. It's not even a privilege. It's a business of goods and services to be bought and sold and no one should be getting something for free that everyone else works to pay for. You may not agree with that POV, but that's the rub. It's a philosophical difference and unless someone changes the way they think about it neither side is likely to budge.

I can see both sides of the argument and the merit in both. The only way to resolve this is a compromise of some sort.

Hell, even Richard Nixon tried to pass a law to provide health care coverage to everyone and he's hardly what you'd call a liberal.

fuck you too.

I have no apologies for what I wrote. You emotionally replied about your friend John. Does your friend John sound lazy? I don't think so at all. Sounds like he was very unlucky, had to have brain surgery and get this, I don't mind paying for him one bit either. I am glad to pay for him. It sounds like he really needed the help.

I know I didn't do the best job of explaining what I meant by being "lazy" but I thought most people here would have understood in the context of what I was saying instead of getting all emotional. Either way, I thought I made it clear that I didn't mind my tax dollars going to people who really needed/deserved the help. That my problem was with the people who were abusing the system and were irresponsible.

How do you feel about this? Do you mind that some of the money you pay in taxes go to people who could afford health care but choose to spend their money on other things like nicer cars, or renting more expensive apartments, or they spend their money on drugs, alcohol or gambling. Or the people who are straight up defrauding the system. Or the people who purposely make irresponsible choices like having five kids when they can't afford one.

You are right I pay for it, you pay for it, we all pay for medicaid, medicare out of our paychecks. Hell I pay for it twice since I am self employed and have to "match" what they take out of the pay check I cut myself. I don't agree however, that all of the costs of this new health care bill is going to be JUST put on the backs of everyone who makes over 250K a year. I think everyone should have to pay for it equally just like everyone who collects a check pays for medicare and medicaid now. But the bottom line is, if they said "everyone" was going to pay for it instead of just the rich, then it would have never passed. No one has a problem making sure the poor have health care when they doing it with some one else's money, but if it was their money, a lot of people would have decided against it.

You might as well say "the demon" instead of "the other side", because I don't remember seeing one other person in this thread that fit what you were saying except for him.

I for one don't have health care but im all for the bill. I spend around $3k a year on cigarettes. Ok so im gonna gonna have to give up smoking and pay for it with im cool with that.

But one group of people that you have not heard much about is the seniors. My wife works for a health care company. They created a special position for her 4 years ago. She contacts seniors and try's to work with the patient and doctor to switch the patient from brand name drugs to generics. Most of these seniors are on 5-10 prescriptions a month an and on social security and need them to live. Her company estimated with the work she has done with this program that seniors are now saving 135k a month on there prescriptions alone.


I just noticed recently that cnn and fox have been mentioning "donut holes"

Donut holes are when Medicaid and such stop paying for prescriptions i believe its at $2830 right now not sure thu. After that the next 4k has to to come out of the patients. Hard to do when you are on a fixed income.


For the last few years over here in Tampa and Pinellas county they put grocery stores on dog food alerts. This usually start around may/june, They tell the cashiers to watch out for seniors buying large amounts of dog food. People are eating it because they spend they money on the prescriptions they need. Im a tough mental guy but just the thought of that just breaks my heart :disgust


The bill is not perfect and never will be. The left and right want to different things. Both are jockeying for position for the upcoming terms. I don't agree with some of the bill but in politics you will never get a perfect bill. You have to give up something and things added to a bill you don't want to get that vote you want. Fucked up but that's the way we roll...:)

Ignore him, he likes to make shit up. It's too funny.

Doesn't really matter...It's passed...And the people love it.

http://www.blackvaginafinder.com/coo...amakingfn9.jpg