Okay, in your instance, I think most people can see where the police would have been coming from in asking for your ID. I think that when an alarm is set off, then they have probable cause to be asking questions. I don't agree with you that police should have the right to ask you to prove citizenship, but for the sake of argument, let's say that I do. :)

The whole issue that I have with the Arizona bill hinges on two terms. "Lawful contact" and "reasonable suspicion". The Arizona legislature could have very clearly defined those two concepts, and I imagine there would have been zero uproar from the general public. But they didn't. The concepts are left very vague, and nothing that I have read thus far shows how those terms are defined by the Arizona Judicial System.

What is lawful contact? It's far too gray an area. Does it mean that a cop can walk up to someone minding their own business, doing nothing out of the ordinary, and ask them to produce a birth certificate or passport? Point to something in the Arizona laws that defines it clearly. If the drafters of the Bill intended for the meaning to be probable cause, then why not use that term that does have legal definition?

What constitutes reasonable suspicion? Same thing as above, there is nothing to show how it is defined. Can ethnicity be a legal factor to determine reasonable suspicion? If so, even if it is combined with other things, I think that is wrong.

I do not trust police to come up with their own definition of those terms. It needs to be done clearly within the bill itself. Not for the protection of illegals, but for the protection of US citizens and legal immigrants.

I do understand that we have a huge issue with illegals. I think going after everyone that employs them is the easiest step.

i was thinking of a movie "a day without know it all adult webmasters who solve the world's problems every day from behind their keyboards" but it would be boring as nothing in the world would be any different.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Point taken. :winkwink:

As a final comment before bowing out, in addition to targeting employers, stopping the War on Some Drugs would probably be the best thing for Arizona, and the rest of the country in terms this issue.

Wow, let me know where you are going in Mexico so I can stay away from there. :winkwink:
I have drove down through the baja area a few times, didn't have any problems but I have heard enough stories that I only go with people that actually know the area.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, they do have the right to stop people. All I was saying was that I thought you were exaggerating how it is quite a bit. I have been to plenty of places far outside the resort towns, I know people that actually live there and many times I stay in the regular parts of the city where everyone lives. Yes they do stop people usually these are checkpoints but most of the time when they stop people they are looking for illegals that are sneaking into Mexico not Americans or Mexicans and if they see a couple Americans in the car usually don't even bother checking you. This is what people that actually live there have told me and what I have seen. The last time I was there about a month ago we went through a checkpoint setup in the middle of the road, they just took a quick look at us and signaled us to keep driving, car was full of people, some Mexican, some American.

Yeah there are dirty cops, I have had that happen once before about 8 years ago, I gave the guy 20 bucks and we were on our way. I wasn't happy about it but it wasn't really a big deal either. As far as actually being thrown in jail for no reason, thats pretty ridiculous, unless you are in some little town in the middle of no where I would seriously doubt any cop trying to pull that. They do have a legal system in Mexico and you would be out pretty quickly and the cop would most likely lose his job. That being said if you get plastered and run around like an idiot bad things have a way of happening. But anyway to say all Mexican cops are dirty is pretty huge generalization.

Someone lied to you. The first thing in the new law is that the police must already
be making a lawful contact with the person for some oner reason. The wording is:

FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS

After passage of the law, the governor added additional language repeating that point that
the police can not stop someone purely on suspicion of illegal entry to the country. Rather,
if they stop the person for some other reason, they are now allowed to both ask for ID, as
they might have done before, and ACT on the what they learn when they ask for ID. Many
police departments strongly suggest to officers that they ignore the fact that people are here
illegally. Arizona is doing the opposite - telling their police that when they happen to find
out that someone is unlawfully here, the police should treat that just like any other unlawful
act and book the person.

That's exactly what the Az law envisions, except without the "sit across the street from Home Depot" part.
It tells the cops to "follow the trial of crumbs. Previously, the cop might issue a speeding ticket
to the driver and ignore the 13 people in the back who are almost surely illegal. Now, when the
cop is done with the speeding ticket, he's to ask the thirteen guys in the back for ID.

Why redefine basic legal terms just for this little law? Terms like "reasonable suspicion" have already been defined
for centuries. The appelate courts and the supreme court have ruled on thousands of e xamples by now.

Point to a law that defines "lawful contact", you ask. Chapter 7 defines it as "lawful stop, detention or arrest".

Well, by law men between 18 and 25 MUST have on them the Selective Services Card. This also included illegal aliens who also are required to register if they are in the USA. Any law official can card check males between 18 and 25 AND if they don't have the card on them they can be detained or jailed till they fill it out.

This is a law that is on the books but never enforced.