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Just hanging out with Lee Harvey tonight.. Wouldnt Lee Harvey be a cool friend. Seems like an interesting enuf chap. You would pretend you agree with Lennonism and that Cuba is cool and you hang with LH. Ya know. He prob doesnt drink, dont smoke, maybe coffee, but you talk about what he is going to do on his next trip down to Mexico or Cuba. It's all about him I'm sure. :1orglaugh http://i892.photobucket.com/albums/a...cut/mugbig.jpg and his Theatre friend.. http://i892.photobucket.com/albums/a...hocut/nick.jpg M. N. "Nick" McDonald on Nov. 22, 1963 Actually Lee is a great name. I knew a great guy named Lee. Lees are like Bills and Bobs. Good honest American name. Just stay out of politics. We would listen to music.. Oct 1963.. and and talk about that f'n Capitalism.. |
we would trip out to
after consuming something he smuggled in from Minsk then listen to |
and watch this on Shindig
(two years off but whose noticing :) ) and those were the times with my neighbor Lee Oswald |
Dial it down my freeballer friend...
http://www.e-petcare.com/wp-content/...6/dog-bath.jpg Never go full retard: ADG |
Well, in closing, thanks to all who voted. Every guy (and girl) votes how they believe and the results were very interesting. Maybe I need to go dig in to YT a bit more.
Nah, I had enuf and he will always be guilty to me. :) |
lol Just touching Nirvana once in a while (to make sure everyone lets me go there) :)
Good stuff ADG You know I need my music :) and what better way to play the 4 Seasons for 21 yos around here. :) If they listen. I cant just come out and say, "hey lets listen to some 4 Seasons guys" lol So I act the fool for the cause. At the end of the day I am an entertainer. :) |
I wud just messin' wit you...keep rocking your conspiracy theories. :thumbsup
Afterall: ADG |
Thanks man, ya needs to be a bit flipped out when dealing with LHO all day. :)
Hard thinking of good songs in 1963. Beach Boys anyone? lol No I promise I wont go to that level. I keep it good. Only first class vids for my peeps. :) Well actually Beach Boys aint bad lets see.. :) I got it! wont ya wont ya wont ya be my gurl oh where oh where can my baby be lol this music is gayer than a 3 dollar bill but I love it. And so do you. :) |
In all seriousness Frankie Vali's pretty good tho. For 1963.
Actually this is what everyone listened to back then.. well at least they talked about it |
Well Elvis almost left the building at Suspicious Minds :)
But glad I stayed as ADG stopped by and that was good. for my 94 y/o mom who likes Elvis (true) It was more than real and you were more than kind. Goodnight everyone. Elvis Has Left The Building |
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Now, for the after midnight crowd (well, here anyway), some time tripping, mind tripping songs (feel free to jump back in the political stuff and ignore me): The Seeds were a 60's Bay Area Band. Here is the legendary pin-up Bettie Page dancing to The Seeds: Lou Christie had a hit around that time too, with "Lightning Strikes" (before my time, but I still have a fascination with the music of that era): It's raining here tonight - so a few more songs about Lightning: Live performing "Lightning Crashes": :stoned ADG |
psst Great post.
Lou Christie, oh man. you know I'm still around. :) But I have to stop doing this, lol, But like I say posting is good luck. It is. If I dont post my signups tank. :upsidedow BTW, I want to ask any and all sigwhores who live here. How do I do this all day, everyday. i dont want to work i just want to bang on the drum all day (seriously) oh you have to be 22 and live at home :) ok I'm f'd then. :) |
ADG do you (or anyone) know the song that goes with these lyrics. It has driven me nuts for a while now: "Jesus loves Maryanne" late 60's or early 70's tune.
"Jesus loves Maryanne" If you can think of it I will be amazed. Great obscure tune I need to hear. And yes I have searched Jesus loves Maryanne. Zip. It could be Jesus loves Carryanne or such. But Jesus loves is part of the lyric. I must hear "Jesus loves Maryanne" It was out with "stuck in the middle with you" "one toke over the line" "sweet mary" "green eyed lady"and them kind of songs around 1970-71. Could be like a Hollies tune. That style. |
best rain song :)
Ray Manzerak and his keyboards Hot stuff with Bettie Page hubba hubba Pushin too hard is an EXCELLENT obscure song. Great find. Lou Christie can flat out sing just like Jay and the Americans This guy can sing Jim this is so fucking good :) |
if you really want to get serious I'll bring out the high octane :)
you guys want to go to one of my early 70's bubble gum parties? this was my fav as a kid in middle school :) I had a girl over in 6th grade, we sat on the couch and listened to this (true) she grew up hot too, but I had my chance in 6th grade :) I can spin early 70's songs. :) That is what I love most. |
Here ya go, I found it, it was Jimmy Loves Mary-Anne :)
Go back with me! Oh Yeah! Jimmy loves Mary-Anne, Jimmy wants to be her man Dance Sabby dance :) |
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Ruby did it, then got jealous because he didnt get the fame anf shot oswald.
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http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...llPaint441.jpg |
The red blob/bloodmist is fake because it appears before the shot and after the bullet connects and you can see the mist disappear leaving the fake flap.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...GIFSoupcom.gif http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...redmistgif.gif http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...er/jfkslow.gif |
The government supports conspiracy in late 70's
The HSCA said there were 4 shots and gave two scenarios based on the dpd radio analysis. One of their scenarios had a shot coming after the fatal shot which is what the evidence suggests.
1st shot = Z157 - Z161 TSBD 2nd shot = Z188 - Z191 TSBD 3rd shot = Z295 - Z296 Grassy Knoll 4th shot = Z312 TSBD. The HSCA went with the above scenario in the late 70's. 1st shot = Z173 - Z177 TSBD 2nd shot = Z205 -Z208 TSBD 3rd shot = Z312 Grassy Knoll 4th shot = Z328 - Z329 TSBD |
Independent researcher gets closer to truth
In 2001, researcher D. B. Thomas studied the dictabelt recording and also determined that a shot fired from the grassy knoll killed the President. His study indicated a total of five shots with a 96.3% probability as follows:
? = Z147 No match 1st Shot = Z175 TSBD (hit a curb) 2nd Shot = Z204 "Rogue Shot" 3rd Shot = Z224 TSBD (hit JFK and Connally) 4th Shot = Z312 Grassy Knoll (Fatal wound) 5th Shot = Z326 TSBD. |
Zfilm fakery proven beyond any doubt
When this retard is sniped by police there is no visible blood because when those moments are caputured there is NO blood seen that soon after, apparently.
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...Paint268-2.jpg http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...llPaint540.jpg http://www.toxicjunction.com/get.asp?i=V4224 The zapruder film was made into a cartoon of Kennedy receiving the frontal shot. This capture shows the red mist before the bullet reaches his head proving beyond doubt that it was added during alteration to hide the front right entrance. http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...llPaint533.jpg Frame 313-The bullet connects with his forehead. http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...llPaint534.jpg |
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Right rear missing
Secret Service Agent Clint Hill was in a unique position to report on the location of the large defect. SSA Hill got a close-up look at the wound as he was riding on the back of limousine on the way to Parkland Hospital. In addition, Agent Hill was present in the trauma room where Parkland doctors were trying to save JFK's life. Then, hours later in Washington, D.C., Agent Hill was called to the morgue at Bethesda Hospital for the express purpose of viewing the President's wounds. And where did Agent Hill say the large defect was located? He said it was in the right rear part of the head. Newsman Roy Stamps saw Kennedy's body in the limousine at Parkland Hospital shortly before it was taken inside. He said,I rushed up and saw Kennedy lying in the car on his side. His foot was hanging over the side of the car. The back of his head was gone.
Nurse Doris Nelson was the Emergency Room supervisor at the time of the shooting. She assisted in treating the President, and helped prepare his body for placement in the coffin. When asked about one of the autopsy photos which show the back of the head intact, she replied, It's not true. . . . There wasn't even hair back there. It was blown away. All that area was blown out.General Godfrey McHugh, one of Kennedy's top aides and was in attendance at the autopsy. He got a very good look at the President's head wounds. McHugh unmistakably placed the large defect in the back of the head. When asked by to define what he meant by "back of the head," McHugh replied, The portion that is in the back of the head, when you're lying down in the bathtub, you hit the back of the head. http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...llPaint441.jpg http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...Paint200-1.jpg |
Oh I think Oswald was "in the window", for sure, but my own kooky personal theory is this:
Oswald was IN the window, gun in hand, and took a shot or two. DID NOT hit JFK, or perhaps one shot grazes him (Oswald was a terrible shot, remember). But from Oswald's vantage point, there in the book depository window, he SEES JFK's brains get blown out! Oswald realizes, in that instant, that there's another shooter. Conspiracy. A back-up. Plan B. There to "make sure" the bastard gets it. Then: "I'm being setup to take the blame for this, oh SHIT!" This explains, to me, more than anything, Oswald's nervousness and crazy behaviour after the shooting. You see: psychopaths, anti-social nuts, mentally-deranged freaks - they all tend to act calm after they've chopped fifty heads off, ya know? A man who thinks he's about to take the fall - the COMPLETE blame for this - is a paranoid fuck, twitchy, nervous....Oswald. Of course, all this happened before I was born so maybe I did it - in my past life. Heh. |
Entrance wound over right eye
http://www.mtgriffith.com/web_documents/front.htm
Dr. David Mantik, a radiation oncologist and physicist, is another doctor who has had the opportunity to study the original autopsy x-rays at the National Archives, and who has likewise concluded they show that two bullets struck the President in the skull, one from the front. Dr. Mantik notes that there is a "notch" in the right frontal bone, over the lateral orbit. "Such missing bone," says Dr. Mantik, "fits very well with a frontal entry at exactly this site." In addition, Dr. Mantik, in agreement with other experts, has observed that the two trails of fragments seen in the x-rays prove that two missiles must have struck the skull. In anatomy, the orbital bone is the cavity or socket of the skull in which the eye and its appendages are situated. The "orbit" can refer to the bony socket,[1] or it can also be used to also imply the contents.[2] In the adult human, the volume of the orbit is 30 ml, of which the eye occupies 6.5 ml The orbits are conical or four-sided pyramidal cavities, which open into the midline of the face and point back into the head. Each consists of a base, an apex and four walls. They are intended to protect the eye from mechanical injury.[4] The base, which opens in the face, has four borders. The following bones take part in their formation: Superior margin: frontal bone http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...llPaint305.jpg |
SS agent provides correct wound path
What Greer was told about the wound path and the entrance wound over the right eye is consistent with Dr. Mantik's interpretation of the x-ray showing fragments behind the right eye.
Mr. Specter. Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away? Mr. Greer. No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came to the--they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus cavity or something they said, over the eye. Mr. Specter. Indicating the right eye. (GREER POINTED OVER HIS RIGHT EYE) Mr. Greer. I may be wrong. Mr. Specter. You don't know which eye? Mr. Greer. I don't know which eye, I may be wrong. But they showed us the trace of it coming through but there were very little small specks on the X-rays that these professionals knew what course that the bullet had taken, the lead. Mr. Specter. Would you describe in very general terms what injury you observed as to the President's head during the course of the autopsy? Mr. Greer. I would--to the best of my recollection it was in this part of the head right here. Mr. Specter. Upper right? Mr. Greer. Upper right side. Mr. Specter. Upper right side, going toward the rear. And what was the condition of the skull at that point? Mr. Greer. The skull was completely--this part was completely gone. http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...llPaint199.jpg |
http://www.assassinationscience.com/HorneReview.pdf
So why does Horne conclude that H&B illicitly removed (and altered) the brain shortly after 6:35 PM, before any X-rays were taken, and before the official autopsy began? He here introduces two intriguing witnesses?the two R?s, namely Reed and Robinson. Edward Reed was assistant to Jerrol Custer (the radiology tech), while Tom Robinson was a mortician. Rather consistently with one another, but quite independently, both describe critical steps taken by H&B that no one else reports. (Horne documents why no one else reported these events?almost everyone else had been evicted from the morgue before this clandestine interlude.) After the body was placed on the morgue table (and before X-rays were taken), [b]Reed briefly sat in the gallery.18 Reed states19 that Humes first used a scalpel across the top of the forehead to pull the scalp back. Then he used a saw to cut the forehead bone, after which he (and Custer, too) were asked to leave the morgue.[b] (Reed was not aware that this intervention by Humes was unofficial.) This activity by Humes is highly significant because multiple witnesses saw the intact entry hole high in the right forehead at the hairline. On the other hand, the autopsy photographs show only a thin incision at this site, an incision that no Parkland witness ever saw. The implication is obvious: this specific autopsy photograph was taken after Humes altered the forehead?thereby likely obliterating the entry hole. |
Reed?s report suggests that Humes deliberately obliterated the right forehead
entry; in fact, the autopsy photograph does not show this entry site. Paradoxically, however, Robinson (the mortician) recalls 20 seeing, during restoration, a wound about ¼ inch across at this very location. He even recalls having to place wax at this site. So the question is obvious: If Humes had obliterated the wound (as seems the case based on the extant autopsy photograph), how then could Robinson still see the wound during restoration? This question cannot be answered with certainty, but two options arise: (1) perhaps the wound was indeed obliterated (or mostly obliterated) and Robinson merely suffered some memory merge?i.e., even though he added wax to the incision (the one still visible in the extant photograph), he was actually recalling the way it looked before Humes got to it, or (2) the photograph itself has been altered?to disguise the wound that was visible in an original photograph. The latter option was seemingly endorsed by Joe O?Donnell, the USIA photographer,21 who said that Knudsen actually showed him such a photograph. Regarding Robinson, Horne concludes that he arrived with the hearse that brought the body (i.e., the first entry). After that, Robinson simply observed events from the morgue gallery; contrary to Reed?s experience, he was not asked to leave. Just before 7 PM, Robinson22 saw H&B remove large portions of the rear and top of the skull with a saw, in order to access the brain. (Robinson was not aware that this activity was off the record.) He also observed ten or more bullet fragments extracted from the brain. Although these do not appear in the official record, Dennis David recalls23 preparing a receipt for at least four fragments.24 Contrary to Reed and Robinson, Humes 25 declared that a saw was not important: We had to do virtually no work with a saw to remove these portions of the skull, they came apart in our hands very easily, and we attempted to further examine the brain?. Although James Jenkins (an autopsy technician) does not explicitly describe the use of a saw, he does recall that damage to the brain (as seen inside the skull) was less than the corresponding size of the cranial defect; this indirectly implies prior removal of some of the skull.26 JOE O'DONNELL http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...llPaint489.jpg |
On the other hand, many witnesses at Bethesda saw the condition of the skull
before such tampering began. These witnesses, both physicians and paraprofessionals, uniformly describe a right occipital blowout, 34 consistent with a shot from the front. Leaving aside the pathologists, as many as eight Bethesda physicians may be on this list.35 In photographs,36 both Parkland and Bethesda witnesses demonstrate with remarkable unanimity, on their own heads, the location of this obvious exit wound on the right rear skull. The X-rays do, however, show many small fragments distributed across the top of the skull.37 So why didn?t Humes extract more of these? I have previously proposed (based on their actual appearance?as viewed in detail on multiple occasions at the Archives) that they look more like mercury than like lead. If so, then Humes would not have been able to palpate them (mercury is liquid) and would therefore have been unable to remove them during his illicit surgery phase. Mr. Specter. Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away? Mr. Greer. No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came to the--they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus cavity or something they said, over the eye. Mr. Specter. Indicating the right eye. (GREER POINTED OVER HIS RIGHT EYE) |
http://www.paulseaton.com/jfk/boh/beth/beth.htm
JOHN EBERSOLE, MD: was Assistant Chief of Radiology and head of the Radiology Division at Bethesda, and was the radiologist who evaluated the X-rays in close cooperation with the autopsists on the night of the autopsy. He was not called to testify before the Warren Commission. However he was called to testify by the HSCA on March 11, 1978. Ebersole's deposition was not published by the HSCA causing it to be sealed for 50 years under congressional rules. (Due to pressure, however, the transcript of his interview was released in October, 1993.) A brief wire service account appeared regarding his appearance before the HSCA claiming that he agreed with the Warren Commissions' conclusions. However, in an interview with reporter Gil Dulaney published two days before his HSCA appearance Ebersole said of the head wound, "When the body was removed from the casket there was a very obvious horrible gaping wound to the back of the head (BE:543).", and "The front of the body, except for a very slight bruise above the right eye on the forehead, was absolutely intact. It was the back of the head that was blown off." (BE:546) http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...llPaint546.jpg |
THIS IS THE SS AGENT WHO PUSHED JACKIE BACK INTO THE LIMO.
"As I lay over the top of the back seat I noticed a portion of the President's head on the right rear side was missing and he was bleeding profusely. Part of his brain was gone. I saw a part of his skull with hair on it lying in the seat --I observed a wound about six inches down from the neckline on the back just to the right of the spinal column. I observed another wound on the right rear portion of the skull." [Hill's 11/30/63 report: 18 H 740-745] "The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car; one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head." [Hill's testimony before the Warren Commission on 3/9/64: 2 H 138-144] |
The Autopsy Report
General Description of the Body
The body is that of a muscular, well-developed and well nourished adult Caucasian male measuring 72 1/2 inches and weighing approximately 170 pounds. There is beginning rigor mortis, minimal dependent livor mortis of the dorsum, and early algor mortis. The hair is reddish brown and abundant, the eyes are blue, the right pupil measuring 8 mm. in diameter, the left 4 mm. There is edema and ecchymosis of the inner canthus region of the left eyelid measuring approximately 1.5 cm. in greatest diameter. There is edema and ecchymosis diffusely over the right supra-orbital ridge with abnormal mobility of the underlying bone. (The remainder of the scalp will be described with the skull.) There is clotted blood on the external ears but otherwise the ears, nares, and mouth are essentially unremarkable. The teeth are in excellent repair and there is some pallor of the oral mucous membrane. The language above is referring to what appears to be the entrance wound over the right eye that Greer talks about in his testimony to Specter. Mr. Specter. Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away? Mr. Greer. No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came to the--they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus cavity or something they said, over the eye. Mr. Specter. Indicating the right eye. (Greer pointed over his right eye.) The area above the eye is specifically identified in the report. About 1.5 inches above the eye. b. From the anterior parietal margin anteriorly on the forehead to approximately 4 cm. above the right orbital ridge. |
I found some definitions that allow for diffusely to also mean penetrate or perforate because this report is all over the place with truth and lies it's not easy to make sense of it.
http://poets.notredame.ac.jp/cgi-bin...n&word=diffuse permeate, pervade, penetrate, interpenetrate, diffuse, imbue, riddle -- (spread or diffuse through; ``An atmosphere of distrust has permeated this administration"; "music penetrated the entire building"; "His campaign was riddled with accusations and personal attacks'' ) ?penetrate, perforate -- (pass into or through, often by overcoming resistance; ``The bullet penetrated her chest'' ) ?probe, dig into, poke into -- (examine physically with or as if with a probe; ``probe an anthill'' ) ?cut -- (penetrate injuriously; ``The glass from the shattered windshield cut into her forehead'' ) ?interpenetrate, permeate -- (penetrate mutually or be interlocked; ``The territories of two married people interpenetrate a lot'' ) ?strike -- (pierce with force; ``The bullet struck her thigh"; "The icy wind struck through our coats'' ) ?break -- (pierce or penetrate; ``The blade broke her skin'' ) ?foray -- (briefly enter enemy territory) ?poke into -- (enter briefly; ``We poked into the bar'' ) ?sneak in, creep in -- (enter surreptitiously; ``He sneaked in under cover of darkness"; "In this essay, the author's personal feelings creep in'' ) ?permeate, pervade, penetrate, interpenetrate, diffuse, imbue, riddle -- (spread or diffuse through; ``An atmosphere of distrust has permeated this administration"; "music penetrated the entire building"; "His campaign was riddled with accusations and personal attacks'' ) ?honeycomb -- (penetrate thoroughly and into every part; ``the revolutionaries honeycombed the organization'' ) ?pierce -- (make a hole into; ``The needle pierced her flesh'' ) ?pierce, thrust -- (penetrate or cut through with a sharp instrument) ?pierce -- (cut or make a way through; ``the knife cut through the flesh"; "The path pierced the jungle"; "Light pierced through the forest'' ) ?tunnel -- (force a way through) ?percolate, sink in, permeate, filter -- (pass through; ``***** permeates sand easily'' ) ?ingrain, grain -- (thoroughly work in; ``His hands were grained with dirt'' ) ?immerse, plunge -- (thrust or throw into; ``Immerse yourself in hot *****'' ) ?storm, force -- (take by force; ``Storm the fort'' ) ?ooze through -- (run slowly and gradually; ``Blood oozed through the bandage'' ) |
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But thank you. He had to have fired from the window. The body double is a little too far out. It was LHO we see afterwards. They must have pos Id'd the body. All this before RRACY's excellent contribution. Will take me a bit to go over it but looks very interesting. The real question I have today is what is up with all these votes who think LHO never shot at JFK? Maybe RRACY's post will enlighten me. And who thought hanging with my psychopath neighbor could be so much fun. I found an old tune I had searched for before. I was "focused" just like LHO. :) |
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The Hollies did have a song called "Carrie Ann", but the word Jesus is not in it: ADG |
ADG, see post 66 :) I found it but thanks. Carrie Ann is a great song.
Love the voice on the "mellow sounding" dude with Looking Glass. Still getting my shit together, then I will go through RRACY's posts. I must have heard it once in 1973 and thought they said "Jesus" loves MaryAnne :1orglaugh Am radio was not real clear in 1973. :) |
There were three very important people killed in the space of a short time. JFK, his brother Bobby and Martin Luther King. All murders have big question marks over them.
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I'll be honest RRACY, there is way to much to go thru. :) But I appreciate the efforts. The slow mos are a big help and it is a great contribution for someone wanting do go deeper.
I did note you think the first blood spray in the front of the face is fake. So then the whole Zapruder film was faked or is invalid. The first blood spray on the film is key. If it is real then he was prob hit from behind. If fake then it looks like it came from the grassy knoll area. Frankly the first spray does look fake as I would think rather than a round 12 inch diameter circle it would be more oblong along with the bullet path. If the film is 100% accurate then something very red was in front of his face the first instant. About 53% of you right now believe LHO did not shoot at JFK. Frankly that is a staggering statistic to anyone over 40. Maybe you all know something that is not general common knowledge. At any rate very interesting. Anyhow I will leave it those more into this than me. I am all Oswald out. :) Frankly I think Oswald was on his usual 6th floor and did the shooting from the window. He may have missed and then seen JFK get hit. Real good point MP. Anyhow I think he was the shooter on the 6th floor, whether he hit JFK.. I think he did. It was fun looking into. But I will leave it you all now. :) |
Right rear blowout , up close
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v4n2/v4n2part1.pdf
16) Nurse Patricia B. "Trish" Hutton (Gustafson): a) 21 H 216: report of activities on 11/22/63---?Mr. Kennedy was bleeding pro-fusely from a wound in the back of his head?A doctor asked me to place a pressure dressing on the head wound. This was no use, however, because of the massive opening on the back of the head.?; b) other WC references: 6 H 46-47, 146, 151;21 H 215, 242; c) 1/8/83 interview by David Lifton (?BE?, p. 706)---?The large throat wound shown in the photographs was not the tracheotomy incision that she saw in the emergency room on November 22,1963 (?It doesn?t look like any that I?ve THE JFK MEDICAL REFERENCE ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 28 Part 1: Parkland Hospital 4 No. 2 © Copyright 2006 Vincent M. Palamara taken part in, let me put it that way.?) and the head wound was at the back, not as shown in the pictures. ?I was standing behind him when I was put-ting pressure on the head,? she said, ?and it was right in front of me. It wasn?t around the side and up on top.? Shown the large hole on the forward right hand side depicted in the x-rays, she exclaimed: ?No way!?; d) ?High Treason?, p.43 and 459-460 (?The Boston Globe?, 6/21/81 [see also "Killing The Truth", pages 652 and 702])---?She was asked to put a pressure bandage on the head wound. ?I tried to do so but there was really nothing to put a pressure bandage on. It was too massive. So he told me just to leave it be.?She said the large wound was at ?the back of the head.? ?Definitely in the back?? she was asked. ?Yes.? She strongly rejects the official picture. ?; ?She said the wound was low on the head, and about the size of a fist.?; http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...llPaint441.jpg e) 9/1/98 letter to Vince Palamara---"Because I have not discussed those two specific points publicly [size of head wound/ where it was located] I will have to leave it that way. If you read my E. Room statement from the Warren Commission it will indicate the wound was very large and I am sory but I can't elaborate further. I do hope the public and you keep on with your research." [emphasis added; she HAS discussed these points publicly(see above), and her WC report goes against offi-cial history!]; f) 9/98 letter to Vince Palamara (in 'response' to my follow-up letter where I attempted to get her to at least endorse her prior statements)---"Sorry I only answered your 1rst letter to let you know I had received it-but I can't go into any more details-Sincerely, Trish Gustafson" [!]; g) ?Murder In Dealey Plaza? by James Fetzer (2000), pages 60, 199 |
17) Chief Supervising Nurse Doris Mae Nelson [deceased 10/3/83]
: a) 21 H 155: 11/25/63 affidavit re: Record of Death; b) 20 H 640-643 /21 H 241-244: report of activities [see also Manchester, p. 673]; c) 6 H 145 /testimony---"?I could look and see [JFK] and tell that it was him?mainly his head [part she saw]": Specter did not ask nor did she vol-unteer info. regarding the head wound; d) other WC references: 6 H 40, 52-53, 83, 116, 119, 137-139, 149, 152; 18 H 795-796, 798-799; 21 H 158, 159, 161, 180, 182, 188, 194, 202, 204, 207, 208-209, 211, 216, 219, 220, 222, 223, 224, 226, 228, 247, 255, 256, 259, 260, 261, 263; e) 12/82 interview with David Lifton ("BE", p. 704)---"Doris Nelson told me the tracheotomy was not the one she remembered: "Looks a little large to me?[it] shouldn?t be that big?It wasn?t any 7-8 cm. [It was] just wide enough to get the trach tube in."; "She looked at [the official autopsy photos of the back of the head] and shook her head from side to side..she remem-bered a large wound there."; f) "A Hero For Our Time" by Ralph Martin (1983), p. 519---"The operating room nurse [unnamed; quite possibly Nelson] later told her high school friend how difficult it was to remove his back brace?"; g) "High Treason", pp. 43-44, 454 ("The Boston Globe", 6/21/81 [see also "Kill-ing The Truth", p. 702])---"Nurse Nelson drew a picture of the head wound, THE JFK MEDICAL REFERENCE ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. mostly in the parietal area, but well towards the rear of the head. Her draw-ing conflicts strongly with the official autopy photograph. When she saw that picture she said immediately, "It?s not true?There wasn?t even hair back there. It was blown away. All that area (on the back of the head) was blown out."; h) "High Treason 2", pp. 103-105---"All I saw was missing skull and brains on the back of his head?it was right there, in the right rear. In the right rear!"; i) deceased 10/3/83 [as per Louis Sproesser] j) "JFK: Conspiracy of Silence", p. 81; k) [unanswered letter from Vince Palamara to Nelson's family 1998] l) "Murder In Dealey Plaza" by James Fetzer (2000), pages 56, 61, 199 29 Part 1: Parkland Hospital 4 No. 2 © Copyright 2006 Vincent M. Palamara |
Finally a forehead witness supporting logic
29) Dr. Donald W. Seldin, Chief Internist:
a) WC references by others present: WR 528; 3 H 371; 6 H 11,32,60-61,64; 17 H 13; 20 H 5; 21 H 184-185, 258, 263; b) Mentioned by Dr. Perry on 11/23/63 on WBAP/ NBC Texas News film above; c) January 1964 Texas State Journal of Medicine article ?Three Patients at Parkland?, p. 63---"[Bashour] and Dr. Donald Seldin, professor and chair-man of the Department of Internal Medicine, went to the emergency room. Upon examination, they found that the President had no pulsations, no heart beats, no blood pressure."; d) 1/14/93 interview with Brad Parker---believes he was not called by the WC because he had nothing of value to add to the investigation e) 8/27/98 letter to Vince Palamara---"The bullet struck the President in the forehead and literally exploded in his skull, so that the entire fron-tal, parietal and temporal bones were shattered?I believe that the offi-cial story is accurate in all details." (emphasis added)[!];f) ?Murder In Dealey Plaza? by James Fetzer (2000), page249 |
Another forehead witness
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/59wit.htm
33) Alan Smith---"?the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead?the car went about five feet and stopped." [Chicago Tribune, 11/23/63, p. 9; Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]; Greer braked before fatal headshot. http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...ver/nixjfk.gif |
No Way Out of Right Rear Exit
The HSCA and JFK's Skull Wound
http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.../hsca_med.html By Gary L. Aguilar, MD March 30, 1995 Parkland witnesses to JFK's skull wound virtually unanimously described a defect in the right rear of JFK's skull. For example, neurosurgery professor, Kemp Clark, MD, closely examined JFK skull and wrote on 11/22/63, "There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput extending into the parietal region....Much of the skull appeared gone at the brief examination...." (Exhibit #392: WC V17:9-10) Dr. Clark's claim of a rearward skull defect was also repeated by Parkland witnesses Drs. Marion Thomas Jenkins, Malcolm Perry, Robert McClelland, Charles Carrico, Ronald Coy Jones, Gene Aiken, Paul Peters, Charles Rufus Baxter, Robert Grossman , Richard Brooks Dulaney, Fouad Bashour, and others. Such a defect is not inconsistent with the autopsy report's description of a parietal-temporal-occipital skull defect. However, a defect in the right rear quadrant seems incongrous with a bullet entering the rear of the skull and supposedly exiting the front, as is alleged to have resulted from Oswald's fatal shot. The autopsy photographs contradict the Parkland witnesses - they show an "anterolateral" defect, that is, a defect on the right side toward the front, with no defect behind the ear. The inconsistencies have raised the question of possible photographic tampering. Regarding this dilemma, the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) wrote, "Critics of the Warren Commission's medical evidence findings have found [sic] on the observations recorded by the Parkland Hospital doctors. They believe it is unlikely that trained medical personnel could be so consistently in error regarding the nature of the wound, even though their recollections were not based on careful examinations of the wounds... In disagreement with the observations of the Parkland doctors are the 26 people present at the autopsy. All of those interviewed who attended the autopsy corroborated the general location of the wounds as depicted in the photographs; none had differing accounts...it appears more probable that the observations of the Parkland doctors are incorrect." (HSCA, Vol. 7:37-39) The statement is supported by reference to "Staff interviews with persons present at the autopsy." Recently released documents reveal for the first time that the HSCA misrepresented both the Warren Commission statements of the Bethesda witnesses, as well as its own "staff interviews," on the location of JFK's skull defect. Rather than contradicting Parkland witnesses that there was a rear defect in JFK's skull, Bethesda witnesses corroborated them. Bethesda witnesses not only described a rear defect to HSCA, they also drew diagrams that overwhelmingly showed a defect at the rear, or right rear of JFK's skull. By falsely representing the data, including its own, HSCA writers inaccurately portrayed Bethesda witnesses as contesting the observations of Parkland witnesses who in fact they supported. They apparently also sought to quell the controversy regarding the autopsy images which show no defect where Parkland, and now incontestably Bethesda, witnesses saw it. Discouragingly, public access to these inconvenient interviews and diagrams--which were of no national security value whatsoever--were to have been restricted for 50 years. In preparing its report, the HSCA failed to acknowledge the Warren Commission testimonies of credible Bethesda witnesses who described a rear defect. Secret Service agent Clinton Hill reported a wound on "the right rear portion of the skull." (WC--CE#1024, V18:744) Secret Service agent Roy Kellerman told the Warren Commission's Arlen Specter that JFK's skull defect was "To the left of the (right) ear, sir, and a little high; yes...(Indicating the rear portion of the head) was absent when I saw him." (WC-V2:80-81). After Secret Service agent William Greer manually demonstrated the defect's location to the Commission, Arlen Specter asked, "Upper right side, going toward the rear. And what was the condition of the skull at that point?" Greer replied, "The skull was completely--this part was completely gone." (Warren Comm--V2:127) Moreover, other Bethesda witnesses interviewed by authors David Lifton, Harrison Livingstone and Robert Groden, as well as others, also described a rear defect in the skull much like that given to the Warren Commission and the HSCA by its Bethesda witnesses. (Available by request. Space constraints prevent a complete listing.) The HSCA's interviews demonstrated a remarkable consistency between the Bethesda witnesses' claims to the Warren Commission, to authors, and to the HSCA - as well as the recollections of Parkland witnesses. James Curtis Jenkins, in a Pathology Ph.D. program at the time of the autopsy, was a laboratory technologist who worked with the autopsy team on JFK. The HSCA's Jim Kelly and Andy Purdy reported that Jenkins "said he saw a head wound in the '...middle temporal region back to the occipital." (HSCA interview with Curtis Jenkins, Jim Kelly and Andy Purdy, 8-29-77. JFK Collection, RG 233, Document #002193, p.4.) Jenkins prepared a diagram for the HSCA that was only recently released. It confirms his verbal description of a defect in the right rear of the skull. FBI agent James Sibert was interviewed by the HSCA's Jim Kelly and Andy Purdy who reported, "Regarding the head wound, Sibert said it was in the '...Upper back of the head.'" [sic] In an affadavit prepared for the HSCA Sibert claimed, "The head wound was in the upper back of the head", and "...a large head wound in the upper back of the head with a section of the scull [sic] bone missing..." Sibert sketched a drawing of the skull wound and traced a small wound square in the central rear portion of the skull, slightly above the level depicted for the ears but well below the level depicted for the top of the skull. (HSCA REC # 002191.) Tom Robinson was the mortician who prepared John Kennedy's remains for his coffin. Robinson assisted with the preparations for an open casket funeral so preparation of the skull was especially meticulous. Robinson described the skull wound in a 1/12/77 HSCA interview with Andy Purdy and Jim Conzelman. Purdy asked Robinson: "Approximately where was this wound (the skull wound) located?" Robinson: "Directly behind the back of his head." Purdy: "Approximately between the ears or higher up?" Robinson: "No, I would say pretty much between them." (HSCA rec # 189-10089-10178, agency file # 000661, p.3. On the day of their interview Purdy and Conzelman signed a diagram prepared and also signed by Robinson. The sketch depicts a defect directly in the central, lower rear portion of the skull. (HSCA doc # 180-10089-10179, agency file # 000662) Jan Gail Rudnicki was Dr. Boswell's lab assistant on the night of the autopsy. Rudnicki was interviewed by HSCA's Mark Flanagan on 5/2/78. Flanagan reported Rudnicki said the "back-right quadrant of the head was missing." (HSCA rec # 180-10105-10397, agency file number # 014461, p.2.) The author is unaware of any diagram Rudnicki might have prepared.) John Ebersole, MD, was the attending radiologist at JFK's autopsy. In HSCA testimony recently released, Ebersole claimed, "The back of the head was missing..." (HSCA interview with Ebersole, 3-11-78, p.3), and when shown the autopsy photograph with the back of the scalp intact, Ebersole commented, "You know, my recollection is more of a gaping occipital wound than this but I can certainly not state that this is the way it looked. Again we are relying on a 15 year old recollection. But had you asked me without seeing these or seeing the pictures, you know, I would have put the wound here rather than more forward." (HSCA interview with Ebersole, 3-11-78, p. 62). Yet Ebersole claimed that "I had the opportunity (to examine the back of JFK's head while positioning the head for X-rays) (HSCA Ebersole interview, 3-11-78, p. 64). Later Ebersole said, "...perhaps about 12:30 (AM) a large fragment of the occipital bone was received from Dallas and at Dr. Finck's request I X-rayed these (sic)..." If an occipital bone fragment did arrive late for the autopsy, the defect must indeed have been posterior. The occipital bone is at the base of the rear of the skull. No diagram from Dr. Ebersole has been released by the HSCA and none may have been prepared by him. Philip C. Wehle--then Commanding officer of the military District of Washington, D. C.--described the head wound to the HSCA's Andy Purdy on 8-19-77, who reported, "(Wehle) noticed a slight bruise over the right temple of the President but did not see any significant damage to any other part of the head. He noted that the wound was in the back of the head so he would not see it because the President was lying face up; he also said he did not see any damage to the top of the head, but said the President had a lot of hair which could have hidden that...." (HSCA record # 10010042, agency file # 002086, p. 2) The author is unaware of any diagram Wehle might have prepared for the HSCA. If the photographs depicting a skull defect anterolaterally are accurate, it is hard to imagine how such a defect would have been invisible to Wehle with JFK lying face up. Whether over forty witnesses at both Parkland and Bethesda miraculously made the identical error in describing a right-rear defect, rather than an antero-lateral defect, is problematic to say the least. Whatever the truth, the HSCA apparently misrepresented Warren Commission testimony, as well as its own witnesses' descriptions, to give false assurances the question was nonconspiratorially laid to rest. The interviews themselves will now unavoidably heighten the controversy of where JFK's skull defect truly was, and public confidence in the HSCA's work will inevitably suffer. |
He was not the only shooter. PROBABLY NATHAN M ROTHSCHILD AND SONS WAS MOST RESPONSIBLE - HERE ME GENEVA!
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Forehead witness reveals logical entrance location
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v4n2/v4n2part1.pdf
7) Dr. Gene Coleman Akin, Resident Anesthesiologist [a.k.a. Solomon Ben Israel]: a) 6 H 65 and 67 / testimony---"The back of the right occipitalparietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain substance extruding."; "I assume the right occiptalparietal region was the exit, so to speak, that he had probably been hit on the other side of the head, or at least tangentially in the back of the head?"; "this [the neck wound] must have been an entrance wound?"; b) other WC references: WR 53, 529, 536; 6 H 70, 73, 76, 79-80; 17 H 14, 21; 20 H 5; c) January 1964 Texas State Journal of Medicine article "Three Patients at Parkland", pages 64, 72, and 73---"Dr. Gene Akin, a resident in anesthesiol-ogy, and Dr. Giesecke connected a cardioscope to determine cardiac activ-ity."; involved in treatment of Oswald, as well; d) "High Treason", pp. 44-45 ("The Boston Globe", 6/21/81)---"Akin reaffirmed this [his WC testimony] to the Globe team and basically did not accept the official picture. On seeing the sketch, he said, "Well in my judgment at the time, what I saw was more parietal. But on the basis of this sketch, if this is what Bob McClelland saw, then it?s more occipital." Akin further said that Dr. Kemp Clark saw the entry wound in the temple."; e) 6/28/84 FBI Memorandum, SA Udo H. Specht to SAC, Dallas, re: inter-views with Akin (RIF#124-10158-10449)---"On 6/18/84, the writer and SA DOUG DAVIS interviewed an individual who stated he was formerly Dr. GENE COLEMAN AKIN, the senior resident anesthesiologist at Parkland Hospital, Dallas, Texas. AKIN stated that he was on duty at the hospital on 11/22/63 when President KENNEDY was brought in the emergency room. AKIN stated that he was interviewed by the FBI during the 1963-1964 period concerning any of the observations he made on 11/22/63. AKIN stated that the "historic accident" of being present in the emergency room on 11/22/63 changed his whole life in a negative way. He feels that the governments on both a federal and state level have harassed him since that time. He stated that he quit practicing medicine in 1979 or 1980 and that DEA took his nar-cotics license away. He has never recouped the money it cost him to practice medicine because of government interference with his own destiny and self initiative. He has been on welfare since 1980 and feels it is now the govern-ments obligation to take care of him. He claims that his sister had him committed to Terrell State Hospital and he was incarcerated in that institu-tion from March 9 through May 25, 1984. He stated that it took him that long to convince the doctors that he was not a "nut." AKIN is in the hospital for heart by-pass surgery on 6/20/84 and he has also been diagnosed as having renal cancer. AKIN also stated that he had his name changed to SOLOMON BEN ISRAEL and he was interviewed in Room 439, St. PAUL's HOSPITAL, Dallas, Texas. AKIN ranted and raved about government injus-tice and conspiracies against him and behaved in a general aberrant man-ner. His mannerism in communicating, in the opinion of the writer, gave him or the information he was trying to relate no credibility whatsoever. The writer attempted to listen to him for over one hour. AKIN made efforts to contact the Dallas news media in order to tell his story, but apparently re-ceived very little favorable response. The writer made efforts to get AKIN to tell his story. AKIN kept ranting and raving about items from the right to the left of the political spectrum. AKIN did finally say that when he saw Presi-dent KENNEDY in the emergency room on 11/22/63, he thought he saw a bullet entrance wound on the President's forehead. The President was covered with blood in the head area and the back of his head was blown wide open. AKIN feels that his observation as to the possible entrance wound on the Presdient's forehead is significant and that he did not mention this item when he was interviewed in 1963-1964 because he did not want to be killed by any conspirators. AKIN stated that if this entrance wound was not documented in the Presidential autopsy, then plastic surgery was probably conducted to cover this up. AKIN made available a cassette tape recording of items he re-corded himself during the past few days. The tape recording was reviewed by the writer and contained no information whatsoever concerning AKIN's comments about the assassination of President KENNEDY. [redaction: at least one paragraph] At 1:45 pm, 6/28/84, AKIN telephonically contacted the writer and stated that he checked himself out [of] St. Paul's hospital to [be] re-evaluated as to what to do about his medical condition. He stated that he was calling from the Dallas County Jail and that he had been ar-rested on 6/26/84. He was unspecific as to why he was arrested, but he in-dicated that it was some type of fraud charge and alcohol might have been an issue also. He wanted the writer to get him out of Jail and that it was all the FBI's fault that his troubles are continuing. AKIN became extremely ver-bally abusive and the writer terminated the call. [redaction: at least a few sentences; end]" (emphasis added in italics)[for important information on SA Specht, see "JFK: Breaking The Silence" by Bill Sloan, pages 40-44: Specht said that he "was assigned to be a kind of custodian of the files pertaining to the Kennedy case", and was the official media spokesman for the Dallas FBI office from 1978 to 1990; in fact, as Sloan writes, he "personally wrote the memorandum that formally closed the Kennedy case from that office's point of view in 1983"!]; f) [unanswered letter from Vince Palamara 1998] g) "Murder In Dealey Plaza" by James Fetzer (2000), pages 56, 60, 150, 180, 197, 199, 240, 249, 252, 298 |
Forehead entrance comes out but barely
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v4n2/v4n2part1.pdf
31) Surgeon David Stewart: a) 12/11/81 letter to Livingstone (?High Treason?, pp. 51-52 , ?High Treason 2?, p. 107, and "Killing The Truth", p. 652)---?there was never any contro-versy concerning the wounds between the doctors in attendance. I was with them either seperately or in groups on many occasions over a long period of time?Concerning [the official photo of the back of the head], there is no way the wound described to me by Dr. Perry and others could be the wound shown in the picture. The massive destructive wound could not remotely be pulled together well enough to give a normal contour to the head that is pre-sent in this picture.?; b) ?New Lebanon, Tennessee, Democrat?, 3/30/67 , c) 4/10/67 ?The Joe Dolan Show?, KNEW radio, Oakland, CA and d) ?Post Mortem?, pp. 60-61---Dolan said he was particularly concernmed with the ?statement about the shot? that killed JFK ?coming from the front.? Dr. Stewart said, ?Yes, sir. This was the finding of all the physicians who were in attendance. There was a small wound in the left front of the President?s head and there was a quite massive wound of exit at the right backside of the head and it was felt by all of the physicians at the time to be a wound of en-try which went in the front.?; THE JFK MEDICAL REFERENCE ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 41 Part 1: Parkland Hospital 4 No. 2 © Copyright 2006 Vincent M. Palamara e) "Probable Cause Australia", Issue #3: Lifton article---Dr. Perry told Stewart not long after that November weekend that "I left the [neck] wound invio-late."; f) ?Murder In Dealey Plaza? by James Fetzer (2000), pages 249, 252, 297 He seems to indicate a left forehead entrance even though the right forehead is what's in evidence. If a person looks at the front they could say the right is the left but in any case, the forehead is the only location to achieve the right rear exit in this case. http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...llPaint307.jpg The right temple was either a mistake by saying right temple instead of right forehead or it was disinfo from Kilduff's press conference. http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...llPaint435.jpg http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...fs/Kilduff.jpg |
Right temple red herring by George Burkley
27) Dr./ Admiral George Gregory Burkley, Physician to the President [de-ceased 1/91]:
a) 22 H 93-97: 11/27/63 report of his activities surrounding the assassination of JFK [see also Manchester, p. 670]---(22 H 94 and 97)?[at Parkland]It was evident that death was imminent and that he was in a hopeless condition.?; [at Bethesda]??his appearance in the casket gave no evidence of the injury he had received.?: perhaps because the wound was in the BACK of the head? ; b) 11/22/63 Press Conference by Asst. WH Press sec. Mac Kilduff (please see ?Best Evidence?, pp. 330-331 and photo 28 [Kilduff Press Conference, 11/22/63, Transcript 1327B-LBJ Library; USSS RIF# 154-10002-10194]: ?Dr. Burkley told me, it is a simple matter, Tom, of a bullet right through the head?: he then points to his right temple! Question: ?can you say where the bullet entered his head, Mac?? ?It is my understanding that it entered in the temple, the right temple.?; "They [the shots] came from the right side." [see Thomas Atkins? film clip as shown in ?The Men Who Killed Kennedy?, ?The Jim Garrison Tapes? video 1992, ?JFK: The Case for Conspiracy? video 1993, ?High Treason 2?, p. 290, Groden?s ?TKOAP?, p. 59; "POTP", p. 408] This in-formation was repeated by Chet Huntley on NBC that day: ""President Ken-nedy, we are now informed, was shot in the right temple. 'It was a simple matter of a bullet right through the head,' said Dr. George Burkley, the White House medical officer." [NBC video, 11/22/63, 1:47 p.m. CST; clip re-peated in Prof. James Fetzer?s video ?JFK: The Assassination, The Cover-Up, and Beyond?]; c) Air Force One, 11/22/63---in Cecil Stoughton photos and can be heard on AF1 radio transcripts re: arrangements for transport of JFK?s remains; d) Autopsy descriptive (face) sheet, 11/22/63---back wound well down below the neck (verified by Dr. Burkley); e) Certificate of Death, signed 11/23/63 [see "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor, p. 128]??a second wound occurred in the posterior back at about the level of the third thoracic vertebra.?; ?The wound was shattering in type causing a THE JFK MEDICAL REFERENCE ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 36 Part 1: Parkland Hospital 4 No. 2 © Copyright 2006 Vincent M. Palamara fragmentation of the skull and evulsion of THREE particles of the skull at time of the impact, with resulting maceration of the right hemisphere of the brain (emphasis added)?; It seems like the grassy knoll was a red herring from the start. Simple geometry proves the entrance wound had to be through the left temple or anywhere on the forehead and in this case it's over the right eye. It could be human error or disinfo. The altered film surely makes it look like the shot came from the right side. The zfilm was altered to make it look like the shot came from the right side and Oliver Stone took that red herring and sold it to the american public. The shot came from in front of jfk. http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...efromfront.gif http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...eadsnapzap.gif |
The past looks like a great place to waste your time...
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