why this biz is dying

[DVTimes]

rather than admit to the reality, so many still feel that you can make a living from the few people who do not know about tube sites or the other free sites.

its a case of head in the sand.

logic sugests that things will get worse.

so why carry on the same fighting for the last few customers?

is it not time to think long term. what is the best way forward.

history on the net has shown, those who act first often win.

an example being those who got in first with tubes and blogs had a head start. those who came in later found it much harder.

is it not time to stop wasting time in the old ways. we need new ways.

mabe porn will be 100% free. its looking that way.

it could even be the BIG sites have problems. for them there content is all over the web, but for small sites they may last longer as its less easy to find for free.

mabe sites will simply turn to tube sites. giving all there content away free but having banners to dating sites.

but things need to change now. otherwise in 10 years the net will be full of free porn, but no one (except from home made) will be making it.

[Scott McD]

You have Tube fear !!!

[C H R I S]

ORLY?


There is something new and innovative that just might bring a whole new paradigm to the table..... any guesses?

[CurrentlySober]

Originally Posted by C H R I S 2.0

ORLY?


There is something new and innovative that just might bring a whole new paradigm to the table..... any guesses?

I guess its some kinda cross breed between a parakeet and a pigeon?

[zeuse]

The words 'in ten years' and 'pay sites' don't belong in the same sentence.

[vyper88]

Let's just hope it doesn't get to this stage :S

http://mashable.com/2011/05/06/faceb...-10-cents-ads/

[JFK]

Originally Posted by zeuse

The words 'in ten years' and 'pay sites' don't belong in the same sentence.

well put

[alias]

Originally Posted by vyper88

Let's just hope it doesn't get to this stage :S

http://mashable.com/2011/05/06/faceb...-10-cents-ads/

You have earned 10% of a tit grope, click here to earn more credits.

[cashcows]

I was having this discussion with a friend tonight. The problem is for years morons have ignored the logic of the situation. People Don't Buy What's Given Away For Free!

All tubes and TGPs need to be taken down. People need to stop giving away free content and DRM needs to be put into place. I have been saying this for 10 years!

Look at the serps in google page after page of free porn. You do know the top listing get's 40% of the clicks. The second page get's almost none. What do you think would happen to sales if the first two pages were all paysites or portals to paysites with NO FREE CONTENT. People would start buying again, they are too lazy to go searching.

But now I see the massive TGP sites that have no direct path to a sales page, what worse you get bounced around from TGP to TGP taking 20 click to get to a sales page. What genius came up with that brilliant plan. The guy could have jerked off 5 times before he even gets to a sales page!

This was an industry that any idiot could do well it. The problem is when an industry is filled with idiots this is what happens.

The smart people that came into this industry made millions and millions for years. The idiots also did quite well but the left the industry in the mess its in.

The best thing that could happen to this industry is the Govt. shutting down all porn that's not behind a credit card screen and block all offshore non-compilers. We should be lobbying for censorship of sites that don't require age verification.

Then you would see sales sky rocket. The sad part is the pirates didn't kill this industry, the Govt didn't kill this industry. The quick buck webmasters did with the short term attitude "Fuck everyone else I'll give it all away for free and make money on up sales and cross sells" screwing everyone else in the entire chain over in the process from the actors on up. This is the same as hunting a species to extension or eating the fruit and throwing the seeds away rather then replanting.

Absolute stupidity!

BTW I give away no free content and still get signups but not as many as I used to.

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by cashcows

All tubes and TGPs need to be taken down. People need to stop giving away free content and DRM needs to be put into place.

Good luck putting the shit back into the horse.

[redwhiteandblue]

Originally Posted by DamageX

Good luck putting the shit back into the horse.

Is there a clip of that somewhere? That'd sell.

[Barefootsies]

Cue Paul Markham ranting in 5...4....3...

[Agent 488]

it's already done. 95% of all adult traffic is tubes or file locker boards/blogs.

[ilnjscb]

Originally Posted by CurrentlySober

I guess its some kinda cross breed between a parakeet and a pigeon?

[ilnjscb]

Actually, probably the next "big" thing won't even be porn. I'm guessing it will be a virtual reality experience, as in taped illegal or difficult experiences such as getting high, battle, sex, parachute, etc for more senses than just visual and audio. At the end of the day we are selling dopamine. They found a way to get it but dopamine receptors become less sensitive over time. Part of the high is the risk part of risk and reward. Relationships need to evolve, which may be why cam girls are doing ok for a little bit. Or... it may be an MFC thing where we just optimize something that already existed.

[2intense]

cams still working good

[Jakez]

-Make it illegal in the US to show hardcore or even software outside members areas.
-Block all sites hosted outside the US and if they want to be accessible in the US they will need to have a mirror hosted in the US that will have to obey US law.

I seem to have become infected with the Markham.

[Emil]

Tubes is like a box of chocolates. There's so much to choose from and you know you cant eat them all because you'll be satisfied within a few minutes.

[Si]

Someone please delete DVTimes from the internet.

[Coup]

Someone put this crazy person into a straight jacket. heh.

[tony286]

Porn was recession proof .When the only way you saw free porn was u found your dads stash or tried to watch the scrambled playboy channel with the hope u would see something. People spent lots of money when all you saw was a box cover. But that was run by people that understood retail and business. Those days are over.

[Agent 488]

the internet was structured to be decentralized and free. creating bottlenecks and fake scarcity to make money off it was an later development.

that tension is always going to be there.

if you can't deal with it sell used cars or sausages offline.

[Jakez]

Originally Posted by tony286

Porn was recession proof .When the only way you saw free porn was u found your dads stash or tried to watch the scrambled playboy channel with the hope u would see something. People spent lots of money when all you saw was a box cover. But that was run by people that understood retail and business. Those days are over.

I believe printed porn is still bigger business than online porn? Hell, greeting card sites are bigger than online porn.

Edit: that was a Forbes article from 2001, my bad lol.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by zeuse

The words 'in ten years' and 'pay sites' don't belong in the same sentence.

Maybe.

I had people telling me the same thing back in 1997.
I also had people telling me that we had better make as much money as we could with our free sites because they wouldn't last past 2000 when Bush was elected.

Pay sites MAY evolve in how they look, function, and are delivered. But I wouldn't count them out at all.

Just ONE law that outlaws nudity in open areas on the internet and paysites will be flourishing.

[nikki99]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Maybe.

I had people telling me the same thing back in 1997.
.

same here, back in 2002 or so...

[AnimeFevers]

[Alprazolam]

Chris 2.0 is still up from the big party? I'm guessing he's sitting by himself, finishing up the baggy and couldn't resist making a fool of himself. Funny thing about enhancements is they make you feel invincible. At least until you read what you wrote a few days later sober.

[SomeCreep]

fallopian tubes

[CaptainHowdy]

Everything will eventually die ...

[ThatOtherGuy - BANNED FOR LIFE]

"Just ONE law that outlaws nudity in open areas on the internet and paysites will be flourishing."

This IF...

But for now...
If you got something worth paying for you are making bank.

[helterskelter808]

history on the net has shown, those who act first often win.

Google wasn't the first search. Facebook wasn't the first social network.

People who are first get complacent and arrogant. Because they're first, and have little to no competition, success comes easy. They think they're the shit, but don't realize they just got very, very, very lucky.

Then when others come along later, true innovators with real skill who give people better service or product, who have to work harder and more creatively to break into an existing market, the dinosaurs get destroyed because they don't have the ability to adapt and change.

All they can do is flail around without a clue, playing a broken record about how much better it was in "1998" when they made $10,000 a day spamming newsgroups, and crying about how life isn't fair because other people came along and beat them at their own game by playing it better.

Originally Posted by Agent 488

the internet was structured to be decentralized and free.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

Everything will eventually die ...

[Best-In-BC]

Originally Posted by cashcows

The smart people that came into this industry made millions and millions for years. The idiots also did quite well but the left the industry in the mess its in.

WROUNG!, its actually the vets that are fucking things up, not the fucking newbies and the idiots, they go nowhere fast

[PiracyPitbull]

The normal adult business model is threatened by problems which are in many way solvable. I don't for one minute believe that Adult needs or would benefit from a new business model - paying for porn fits best for this industry the same as mainstream media.

Even though the economy and piracy have taken their toll on the industry (and we're not alone there) - a reasonable percentage of the current shitty state comes from within.......shame.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by Jakez

-Make it illegal in the US to show hardcore or even software outside members areas.
-Block all sites hosted outside the US and if they want to be accessible in the US they will need to have a mirror hosted in the US that will have to obey US law.

That law won't pass. US tried that with COPA back in 1998.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Just ONE law that outlaws nudity in open areas on the internet and paysites will be flourishing.

wrong. because while you might be able to stop US sites from showing nudity no non-US sites will continue to show it. Non-US sites do not have to obey US law. Also that law will hold up consitutionally. Would a site showing how to perform a breast exam or testical exam be forced to a paywall? Would a site showing art that has naked people have to be behind a paywall? If not then you're getting into a murky area.

[ThatOtherGuy - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Originally Posted by cashcows

The smart people that came into this industry made millions and millions for years. The idiots also did quite well but the left the industry in the mess its in.

I really hate it when people say something like this. Just for the record guys that came into this industry at the start of online porn were uneducated idiots and drug addicts.

It is well documented, they were not smart they just happened to be at the right place at the right time. Then Uneducated thieves moved in that did everything they could think of to rip people off.

Good case study sex.com. Drug addict thief steals domain over charges for ad space upto a million a month for front page ad postions, original owner an idiot let's it slide goes to court for many years, get's it back has a penchant for prescriptions destroy's sex.com... ( Both not smart, both dumb, both uneducated one is a thief. )

Founders of this business deserve no respect, they are the ones that put this industry where it is at today.
Some of them are still doing it... Though experienced guys know who they are and how to avoid them.

Calling them "Smart Businessmen" is really not the term that should be used whats so ever.

Some of them just got a lucky break with a few good domains that sold off because they got lucky registering .coms early, some set up elaborate email scams, some stole content outright since there was no DMCA adn even then the DMCA was largely ignored. To this day I can not think of a singular smart guy in this business that started with absolutley nothing, did not rip a single person off without a big break of one sort or another.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by GatorB

wrong. because while you might be able to stop US sites from showing nudity no non-US sites will continue to show it. Non-US sites do not have to obey US law. Also that law will hold up consitutionally. Would a site showing how to perform a breast exam or testical exam be forced to a paywall? Would a site showing art that has naked people have to be behind a paywall? If not then you're getting into a murky area.

And the "non-US" sites would be blocked from being viewed in the US (the world's biggest consumer of porn)

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by cashcows

All tubes and TGPs need to be taken down. People need to stop giving away free content and DRM needs to be put into place. I have been saying this for 10 years!

The music tried suing and tried DRM. It failed and alienated a generation of potential customers that will never pay for music again. That being said as soon as the music industry got rid of DRM and stopped suing people sales of online music went UP.

The movie industry has DRM on DVDs. Guess what not hard to get by that. Anyone can get any movie they want via torrents. This has been a big problem. But guess what over the last couple of years torrent use for downloading movies has gone DOWN. Why? Because of NETFLIX. See people were still willing to pay they just weren't willing to pay that the greedy studios want. Now the studios are still trying to kill Netflix because accepting Netlflix means less money form traditional ways which is dying anyways. They just don't want to accept that.

See $8 a month for Netflix is better than putting up with bullshit that torrents present. Now the adult industryu needs to quit having the same attitude as the mainstream movie industry and hanging on to old ways. yes tubes are fee. They're also loaded with crappy quality content loaded with advertising or multiple watermarks( form people stealing and uplaoding the same content over and over ). Usualy same contetn is on their multiple times and content is poorly organized. Tube sites filled with ads and pop-ups for chat to penis pills or other crap. And many tubes actually fill your computer with virues or spyware. But to many people that is better than paying $30-$40 a month. Netflix offers a 1 week-free trial( sometimes a month ) then offers subscriptions of $8 a month. Until a paysite offers something similar expect declining sales to continue.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by Robbie

And the "non-US" sites would be blocked from being viewed in the US (the world's biggest consumer of porn)

How would that happen?

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by GatorB

How would that happen?

You're a smart guy...you figure it out. It already "happened" in many countries that don't allow ANY websites from the western world in.

Here's a hint: "firewall"
Another hint: "blocked IP's"

[halfpint]

Maybe a good idea to stop charging $29.99 for a months subscription and give users the option of paying smaller amounts ..oh wait that will never work because all the webmasters will sart crying about making a few $$ from a sale instead of the insane $30 per sale

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by Robbie

You're a smart guy...you figure it out. It already "happened" in many countries that don't allow ANY websites from the western world in.

Here's a hint: "firewall"
Another hint: "blocked IP's"

You forget the US has the US Constitution. May I suggest googling COPA. Also blocking IP would have to be done at the ISP level and they are reluctant to even block torrent sites that are committing copyright infringement. But now they're totally willing to block LEGAL porn sites. Yeah ok.

You live in some fantasy world let me give you a does of reality. Ok let say there was some desire in Congress to pass such a bill( I haven't heard of any )say such a bill got passed and somehow they accelerated to a Jan 1st 2012 start date of this law( VERY doubtful such a law would take place that fast ) Immediately someone would sue and an injunction would be in place until the case is hard in court. This would take many months if not years. The loser would appeal and appeal again until the case is inevitably heard by the US Supreme Court. Even if the US Supreme Court upheld this law( they didn't COPA ) were talking 10 years from now at the earliest such a law could accually be in place in the US. A bit late in my book don't you think? Would it really do any good at that point?

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by ThatOtherGuy

Just for the record guys that came into this industry at the start of online porn were uneducated idiots and drug addicts.

It is well documented, they were not smart they just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

I think you're painting with way too big a brush.

I'm not a "drug addict" or an "uneducated idiot"
Matter of fact most real "drug addicts" can't get a lot done in their lives (with a few exceptions of really,really smart guys who can "function" and be addicted to substances)

Me, my partners, and the people we did business with back when online porn really took off in the mid 1990's were all pretty sharp folks.

And how is it "well documented" that they were not "smart" and just "happened to be at the right place at the right time"? Documented by who exactly...losers who weren't visionary or smart enough to see how to make money at the time?

I have to say that in every business the people who were there at the right time and right place were there because they ARE smart.

But you can think whatever you like. Won't really change the facts no matter how many people on a message board think it.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by GatorB

You forget the US has the US Constitution. May I suggest googling COPA. Also blocking IP would have to be done at the ISP level and they are reluctant to even block torrent sites that are committing copyright infringement. But now they're totally willing to block LEGAL porn sites. Yeah ok.

GatorB...IF a law was enacted...then yes everything I'm saying could and would happen. The constitutional argument could be attempted...and fail. Just like if you go to Tampa and try to order a Max Hardcore movie lol

Putting it behind a paysite members area only isn't censoring it or stopping free speech. It would simply be argued that it's keeping it away from children. And yes, it would pass.

That was the biggest fear I had since 1996 worrying that it would destroy my free site business.
But now? With pirate sites? I have nothing to lose and wouldn't have any problem at all with it.

Not saying it's gonna happen. Just saying it very well could happen and IF it does...paysites will be the ONLY game in town. Never say never.

[ThatOtherGuy - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I think you're painting with way too big a brush.

I'm not a "drug addict" or an "uneducated idiot"
Matter of fact most real "drug addicts" can't get a lot done in their lives (with a few exceptions of really,really smart guys who can "function" and be addicted to substances)

Me, my partners, and the people we did business with back when online porn really took off in the mid 1990's were all pretty sharp folks.

And how is it "well documented" that they were not "smart" and just "happened to be at the right place at the right time"? Documented by who exactly...losers who weren't visionary or smart enough to see how to make money at the time?

I have to say that in every business the people who were there at the right time and right place were there because they ARE smart.

But you can think whatever you like. Won't really change the facts no matter how many people on a message board think it.

Well I started in 96.
I seen plenty of evidence about the card bangers, the spammers, the content thieves, processing scams, webmaster rip off's and what went hand in hand with that is no education and alot of drugs by most operators. If you ran your business 100% clean and sober legit good for you I am not saying ALL nothing is absolute on the internet but I am saying most.

But were you one of the guys scoring out high end 6 figures a month? I do not think so.

In 96 I was charging upto 5K for a single tour and knockin out 2-3 a month, these days I can barely find a customer willing to pay $300.00.

EZ mode is off and will never be back, people goto realize that. Now it does require smarts and hardwork and shaping a product or service worth paying for.
Lucky shots are done.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by Robbie

GatorB...IF a law was enacted...then yes everything I'm saying could and would happen. The constitutional argument could be attempted...and fail.

Yeah then why did COPA fail?

The Child Online Protection Act (COPA) was a law in the United States of America, passed in 1998 with the declared purpose of restricting access by minors to any material defined as harmful to such minors on the Internet.

The federal government was enjoined from enforcing COPA by a court order in 1998. In 1999, the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit upheld the injunction and struck down the law, ruling that it was too broad in using "community standards" as part of the definition of harmful materials. In May 2002, the Supreme Court reviewed this ruling, found the given reason insufficient and returned the case to the Circuit Court; the law remained blocked. On March 6, 2003, the 3rd Circuit Court again struck down the law as unconstitutional, this time finding that it would hinder protected speech among adults. The government again sought review in the Supreme Court.

On June 29, 2004, in Ashcroft v. American Civil Liberties Union,the Supreme Court upheld the injunction on enforcement, ruling that the law was likely to be unconstitutional. Notably, the court mentioned that "filtering?s superiority to COPA is confirmed by the explicit findings of the Commission on Child Online Protection, which Congress created to evaluate the relative merits of different means of restricting minors' ability to gain access to harmful materials on the internet." The court also wrote that it was five years since the district court had considered the effectiveness of filtering software and that two less-restrictive laws had been passed since COPA, one prohibiting misleading domain names and another creating a child-safe .kids domain, and that given the rapid pace of internet development those might be sufficient to restrict access by minors to specific material. The court referred the case back to the district court for a trial, which began on October 25, 2006.

In preparation for that trial, the Department of Justice issued subpoenas to various search engines to obtain Web addresses and records of searches as one part of a study undertaken by a witness in support of the law. The search engines turned over the requested information, except for Google, which challenged the subpoenas. The court limited the subpoena to a sample of URLs in Google's database, but declined to enforce the request for searches conducted by users; Google then complied.

On March 22, 2007, U.S. District Judge Lowell A. Reed, Jr. once again struck down the Child Online Protection Act, finding the law facially in violation of the First and Fifth Amendments of the United States Constitution. In addition to the plaintiffs ACLU et al., several witnesses testified in defense of first amendment rights on the Internet, including the director of the Erotic Authors Association, Marilyn Jaye Lewis.Reed issued an order permanently enjoining the government from enforcing COPA, commenting that "perhaps we do the minors of this country harm if First Amendment protections, which they will with age inherit fully, are chipped away in the name of their protection." The government again appealed, and the case was heard before the Third Circuit.

On July 22, 2008, the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the 2007 decision.

On January 21, 2009, the United States Supreme Court refused to hear appeals of the lower court decision, effectively killing the bill


Even if you're right like I said it would be 10 years before the law actually took effect AT THE SOONEST. What good would a law do in 10 years? If they industry is hurting NOW what good is a law in 10 years. Which part of my point are you not getting yet? Which part should I write in crayon so you can understand it?

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by ThatOtherGuy

But were you one of the guys scoring out high end 6 figures a month? I do not think so.

My partners and I were AL4A.COM and AMPLAND.COM and owned a content company, a hosting company and of course a million little projects...you tell me if you still "do not think so"

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Even if you're right like I said it would be 10 years before the law actually took effect AT THE SOONEST. What good would a law do in 10 years? If they industry is hurting NOW what good is a law in 10 years. Which part of my point are you not getting yet? Which part should I write in crayon so you can understand it?

First and last...I am VERY aware of COPA. It had me worried at the time.

As far as it taking 10 years....you're wrong. Just ask the gambling sites that just got nailed how long it takes to put a law into effect.

And thirdly...Saying you want to write it in crayon is YOU insinuating that you are somehow better and smarter than me? I find that to be completely disrespectful.

That means you meet my criteria for going on my IGNORE list.
1. You don't seem to have anything that you actually do in this business therefore you are useless to me in making money.
2. You acted out and spoke to me disrespectfully.

That makes you a clown. Goodbye and welcome to my Ignore list. I'm sure you are already on a lot of them.

[ThatOtherGuy - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Originally Posted by Robbie

My partners and I were AL4A.COM and AMPLAND.COM and owned a content company, a hosting company and of course a million little projects...you tell me if you still "do not think so"

Then I was right
Not a down on you're business, not trying to slight you, not saying you were not succesful, but even those platforms did not pull HIGH END 6 Figures a month. They are great though and excellent steady business, and I would bet still very lucrative

I remember a few people and even 1 of them I worked directly for made a clear 7 figures a month, though I can not say I would agree with all that was done in them. As of right now I only know of a few guys even doing mid to high end 6 figures a month compared to in the past when there were many many of them.

All different measures.
I am glad you were successful though congrats and I also must say I was not exactly sure who you were till now thanks for clarification. How much are paid spots now compared to even 2005?

PS: Yes we have met before, and yes I have your card from a trade show circa 2004-2005, Las Vegas

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by ThatOtherGuy

How much are paid spots now compared to even 2005?

Wouldn't have a clue. I don't have enough traffic left to do paid spots on the sites I have now.
The last high dollar paid spots I did were on Ampland (we split our company up in Nov. of 2006 so that is no longer me). And that was on my old "Nasty Nine" list. Those were simple text links on the main page. They were $6,000 each and there was a waiting list for them (only nine available).

And you are correct...we didn't do "upper" six figures a month. We did "lower" six figures a month with everything we had going on.

And the people we dealt with...Max Cash, ARS, CE Cash, Traffic Cash Gold, and a few others were owned by people who DID make more than a million a month and none of them were stupid or drug addicts (yeah, we all party when it's party time...but not drug addicts)

The later guys who came in like Nasty Dollars, Top Bucks, Lightspeed, Gamma etc. weren't stupid or drug addicts either.

Matter of fact they were all pretty sharp.