signupdamnit

Some people say that the tubes like Porn Hub are great for sponsors. They can submit some clips with watermarks and then make all sorts of sales from it. But if this is the case why would any pay site ever need to close. All you need do is keep submitting large clips to these large tubes and rake in the sales, right?

On the other hand if for every one sale you make by giving Porn Hub one of your full videos you take away ten sales you used to make before from affiliates and type-ins then the math would work out to what we are seeing. Sure you might make 4 sales a day from putting your full content on those tubes but you're losing 40 a day that your affiliates and typeins used to send you.

Show me where I am wrong.

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MaDalton

looking at my client base i have to say that many "old school" sites disappeared - people who stuck to the old fashioned paysite model and avoided tubes

on the other hand i have big clients who embraced the tube site model and use them as traffic sources for their paysites

i guess thats why some close down and others grow

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pimpmaster9000

giving away full clips is just conditioning people to get it for free...war of the tubes and content dumpers...breeding an army of freebie surfers...selling penis pills and dating but giving the porn for free...sounds like a long term business model LOL

MaDalton

its a myth that you cant sell premium porn on tubes

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signupdamnit

I want to be clear. I don't mean tubes themselves, I mean tubes with 30 minute videos on them. Often entire scenes which are stolen. There's a big difference between a tube such as PornHub and a so-called legal tube. I'm entirely speaking of tubes such as PornHub or XHamster for the purposes of this topic.

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MaDalton

not every 30 min video you see on a tube is stolen, many of them spend A LOT of money to license content

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dj1

I mostly agree with this, in my case it's a bit different because I have games and flash animations and they are more a part of the sell on my site than the movies

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signupdamnit

Which type of tube and which type of content and product though? I am an affiliate for a very tiny program which never caught on. Until recently Signbucks.com didn't even list it in fact. But a couple years ago I was able to send this small program 5-10 sales a day from 300-700 uniques a day on a consistent basis. As the tubes such as PornHub and XHamster rose I saw these numbers degrade horribly.

Do you think if the program owner were to start submitting to Porn Hub they would make 10 sales a day now in 2012? Personally I do not. I would be surprised if they made even one sale a day now.

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signupdamnit

I am aware of this. But that isn't the main issue for the purposes of the thread.

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MaDalton

i am by far no paysite expert, unfortunately i dont have time to take care of mine as i would like to. But a couple of months ago i submitted 10 videos as a test on one tube (Madthumbs) and made a couple of sales of which some still rebill. In total maybe $500 in sales for 15 mins of work.

i also heard that XHamster generates pretty good sales, havent tried them yet.

but mostly i just see who (still) spends money on content and look at their strategies - it always includes tubes in one or the other way.

just my observation

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MaDalton

it kind of is...

because the tube owners need those free 30 min videos to attract people to sell them other 30 min videos.

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signupdamnit

Not really because we're only talking about for the sponsor who wants to make more sales. Not for the tube owner. I'll acknowledge that not every full scene video on a tube such as PornHub is stolen.

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signupdamnit

That's good that you did well from it. I quickly looked at Mad Thumbs and it does appear that they have fewer full scenes on the initial page than Porn Hub did. I think that can make a big difference. Likewise if you're offering something exclusive and in a niche which the tube doesn't have other videos I think you could do good giving a little away.

Otherwise just common sense tells me that less people are going to buy your goods when it is freely available. There is this old parody commercial on Saturday Night Live that I keep thinking of. It was called "Colon Blow" cereal. Check it out it's worth the view anyway:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7m...colon-blow_fun

I imagine instead of cereal we ask "How many PornHub impressions does it take to get a sale as compared to impressions from a blog?" and I visualize that commercial....

"It takes over THREE MILLION Porn Hub impressions just to generate one sale. Better get submitting!!"

So it just seems to me you are taking what used to convert say 1:5,000 impressions from search engine traffic to a blog into 1:3,000,000 impressions on PornHub. The tubes like PornHub have volume so the sales look good on the surface but if you have an established program with affiliates and typeins already sending you sales then I think it's easy to not see that you are getting those sales at a far higher cost than you might think.

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gabe100

The day will come when we are all submitting full movies to tubes. Saying that giving away full movies will condition the surfer to expect it for free doesn't work in 2012. It's all free anyway.

Best converting tubes over the last couple of years for me in order

youporn - youporn used to be a hidden gem, still does well
xham - community oriented, build the subs and they will come
ph - same as above, completely different audience than above though
xvideos - hardcore porn lovers here, brutally vocal if they don't like your content
madthumbs - don't have them figured out yet, great tube though. Nice guys

Xham has a zero revshare - you keep it all - providing you post longer movies.

Don't forget about type ins too. Tubes work. Smaller ones are good too. Porn.com, drtuber, bangyoulater.

My lifetme YP numbers are small but here they are:

Millions of views.
265,211 clicks to join page
695 sales
1494 rebills
1-382

TheSquealer

As if everyone is a competent business person and will succeed no matter what.

Paysites have always closed. Seeing programs today close is absolutely nothing like what happened in the first few years of the biz where programs popped up and disappeared by the hundreds.

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MaDalton

you might be right. like i said - i am not an affiliate and not a paysite expert

i just told my observations regarding my clients and my own little experiments

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lucas131

something very new ... every day ...

signupdamnit

Is this for a pay site(s)? How many millions or billions of views?

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Robbie

I'd like to know the numbers of sales per day that people stating that tubes sell great are.

I have a feeling that my idea of "great sales" from before all the piracy and big tubes is a lot different than what guys today think are "great sales".

As the OP pointed out...if all this piracy and full scenes (and full members areas for that matter) being given away for free is so fucking great...then why is our industry hurting so badly?

Seems to me to hear some people talk, that it should be raining down money with all this great "marketing". lol

Dumbasses.

If you give it ALL away for free...you KILL your sales. I have no idea what desperate mindset could lead some people to believe that it wouldn't.

The proof is obvious all around you. And people are scrambling for traffic to try and sell cam memberships instead of selling the porn which was always the golden goose before. Total fucking stupidity.

But hey...let's all race to the bottom as fast as we can. And maybe some people will make a handful of sales and proclaim it "great". lol Fucking losers.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

$5 submissions

Look at it this way--circle jerk sites are still alive... how? They just use a tube front end and launch thousands of sites that litter the SEs.

It's all about adapting to the times.

The face may be the different but the core is the same.

I'm all mainstream now and the same basic models that worked in 1996 still work now.

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signupdamnit

But if 15 minutes of work a day will get you three sales forever then why would anyone close? If you truly think there are no diminishing returns why not scale that into 8 hours a day and make 96 sales a day? The answer is likely that it really doesn't work like that. Submitting ten full length movies a day will eventually get you jack shit because only a fool would pay for what you offer them for free.

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DWB

Tube sales are GREAT if you have nothing to compare them to.

If you want to see how great they are, pull out your pre-tube sales stats and compare them to today's stats. That will tell you everything you need to know. Most people who rave about tube sales to pay sites were not around before them and have no reference of what great sales really are.

The pay site game changed. And when you see those $300,000 pre-paid cam deals for pop-under traffic, you know who the real winners are, and it ain't pay sites. And you idiots who are uploading full length videos making a couple sales a day at best are doing nothing more than fattening up the lion who's eventually going to eat you.

But to answer your question, yes, they make sales. They just suck balls when you know the taste of real sale numbers and how much they have hurt instead of helped. Making 3 - 10 sales a day from tubes when you made 30 - 100+ sales a day before tubes, isn't moving forward.

DWB

You are full of shit. And that can be proven by looking at the size of the industry shows these days.

I remember when someone had a fucking mini-roller coaster at AVN. Now it's all fold up card tables and wall banners. That is how good it is now.

Robbie

Yep. It's killed the affiliate model (I say "killed" in comparison to what it was pre-piracy and pre-stupidity) and pretty much turned the conventions into a nice get together for people.

Back in the day...programs were vying for affiliates. These days (relatively speaking) there are no affiliates. So the show is basically a party with an inordinate amount of billing processors.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

DWB

And that is the thing, you have to have something to compare it to. With no reference, sales would be amazing. Best you've ever seen. But with a real reference, you would be crying inside when your tube sales trickled in.

Like the poster above with his lifetime tube stats. I'm a very small fish and I could do those numbers in 3 - 4 weeks pre-tubes, and I know you could have done them in a few days. Now...

Robbie

QFT

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

mineistaken

Those who say that are idiots. Of course you can gain X number of sales from that. However on the other hand you lose Y number of sales due to all the free content on tubes. And that Y number is way bigger than X number.
Thats fact.

DWB

The only "smart" thing about it is they don't have to pay for content. They just steal it and make a few sales off another persons hard work.

Pretty smart really. The entry level costs and knowledge needed to make a buck in the business keeps getting lower and lower. Goes hand and hand with every other aspect of the business. Lower quality people equals lower a quality business. At least before you actually had to know something, have a skill, or have money. These days all you need is a way to watermark over another watermark and you're making beer money over night.

IllTestYourGirls

If everyone eats pizza why do pizza joints close everyday?

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DWB

Mismanagement. Bad location. Too much overhead.

But you can bet your ass if I was in their parking lot handing out free pizzas (their pizzas) to everyone walking into the restaurant, they would close a hell of a lot faster.

gabe100

And if you were standing out in front giving out free samples because all the other pizza joints in the hood couldn't compare and you know it and they know it, you just might get some sales and return buyers.

Tubes are great for people with unique content. If you push generic shit the tubes will still benefit you because it will accelerate the inevitable and you can bail out faster.

DWB and Robbie love both of you, we just disagree on this one subject. No one is a loser or an asshole, for some the tubes work, others they don't.

gabe100

Not saying i could've done them faster or whatever. Just showing the numbers. I'm a small guy and yes my sales are no where near 2001-2 numbers.

It's a different world. Making comparisons to a different time entirely is ridiculous.

Robbie

The point I was trying to make is that a lot of people who have never had any real success in this business try to come on GFY and talk authoritatively about sales and tell people like me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

But I do know what I'm talking about. And the orignal post of this thread says it all: If pornhub is so great, then why aren't paysites prospering instead of dying?

The few decent affiliates that are left are only making a small percentage of the sales to paysites that they once made.

It's not brain surgery to realize that if you give the whole thing away...nobody will buy it.

And yeah...your analogy about giving out SAMPLES of pizza to show how good it is...is an analogy I completely agree with.
I made millions with my tgps doing just that.

And we could all still be making great money with our tubes IF it was still SAMPLES.
But with entire sites having their members areas ripped and given away for free on file share sites and torrents..and then stupid tube sites giving thousands of FULL scenes away for free just to get big traffic numbers...well, that ain't no sample.

That's giving away the whole thing.

And yeah...that's just STUPID.
Sure, guys that own the tube sites doing that are making good money off the traffic. Selling pre-paid ads and doing white label cams.

But they are throwing away the value of the entire business and making far less than what they could if they just weren't giving it ALL away.

But what do I know? All these companies going out of business and/or getting bought out by Fabian, and all the people who have lost their jobs, and all of the sales that USED to happen...I suppose none of that means anything.

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-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

slapass

This thread is very informative. Obviously 2002 was better then today. Ok so we admit that. It is interesting to see people are continuing to make money selling porn with the tubes. A niche site with good content could survive but would they do better getting a job pounding nails? 10 sales a day could hardly pay the content bill over time.

jack-exploitedbabysitters

i wouldn't be surprised if some guy are doing 50 plus joins a day from daily submits over time, videos that have big watermarks various niches all type ins

gabe100

Robbie, it was cool seeing you in vegas recently, I was wearing a stupid fuzzy hat. Time before that was in a limo with Al in Vegas 10 years ago, probably the same stupid fuzzy hat. You remember my history with al4a. Most people back then shunned the TGPs but guys like quiet killed it. Guys like you killed it by providing the platforms for lots of companies to explode.

im not a big guy, never claimed to be and certainly am not telling you how to do things. All I'm saying is for some the tubes work. For others they don't.

I seeded guba back in the day, I seeded sites like scour and kazaa and the TGPs and now big fat tubes.

How anyone can quantify what people are losing out on makes no sense to me. You don't like the sample I provide in my front of my store, fine move along and go down the street.

It's a different world, soon everyone will be submitting full movies and begging to do so.

Different for you maybe because you have a wife that loves you.

Robbie

And again....if that is really happening, then why aren't paysite sales exploding? Instead of a lot of them closing up shop and failing?

Also...I had the owner of DogFart write me and ask me to take down ALL of the vids of theirs that were submitted to my tube. They had been re-watermarked with URL's that redirect to the submitters ref code for the site that the vid came from (you know, the same shit that EVERYBODY is doing trying to save themselves as affiliates).

But he told me that he didn't want his stuff up there re-watermarked without his permission. And I have a feeling that if that becomes more prevalent amongst paysite owners as they start figuring out what affiliates are doing..that it will be the end of that shit too.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

Robbie

It was good seeing you too.

But like I was saying...yeah, done the right way a tube site can make some sales. But it's very difficult to do it the right way when you have morons out there posting up thousands of full scenes and leaving nothing to actually sell to folks.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

gabe100

easy dude.. EASY.. then throw sponsors in your library that serve the same niche and upsell them all at 1-20.

Recur at 4.1, and with everything added up bam!

But no, don't do it. An extra million people will see it for free.

Who cares, they are anyway.

People we're in 2012... content is king again. The tubes provide distribution, all the overproduced shit from the mid 200's - all the red light and valley garbage.. all that has been played out. All the content blow out stuff you all bought as fillers, that shit is all played out


It's back to who has the best content wins. Unless you have your own traffic channels.. small guys like me don't.. then take advantage of it. People at youporn are fucking cool and so easy. Chris at Manwin EASY, Alex at xham EASY...

You own the type ins... you can yank the videos anytime.

But no... a million extra people will see it for free.

jack-exploitedbabysitters

Some guys sales are up though other guys sales are down on top of that many guys can't market for shit. U don't need to a good paysite when it boils down to it, just need to make it seem like ur stuff is hot for them to join.

TheSquealer

So here we are. Youtube launches and explodes in early 2004. Pornotube.com launched in late 2004 i think much to the total and complete shock and disgust of the adult biz, in spite of the built in affiliate model. Pornhub, redtube.com et al, launch shortly after. Everyone insists it all can't work and that their traffic is crap, they can't succeed... 8 years later, same discussion continues... a discussion that's still clearly wrong on every single level.

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Konda

Tubes generate 1000s of paysite sales a day. The tubes made porn a lot more mainstream. A lot more people are watching porn, there is more porn traffic than there ever was before.
Who cares that 100,000 people watch your video for free to generate just a few joins. Without the tubes only a small fraction of those people would have known about your paysite.
It's really a matter of adapt or die. Smart people are generating tons of sales from tube. The whining people in this thread failed to adapt and now other (smarter) people are getting the sales they used to make.

signupdamnit

The numbers appear to tell a different story than what you suggest.

On 1 million impressions I will make around 30 sales at least on average. On 1 million impressions from tubes such as Pornhub from what I gather it's common to make 1-3 sales on a pay site.

There are only so many potential customers out there. You say that they are bringing it to more people but that doesn't make much sense. Why would they not have been able to find porn before simply by typing a few keywords into Google? For the most part it's the same pool of people we would have had before anyway.

Now let's say there are 500 million potential qualified customers out there which we will simplify to one impression each to make this easier. Do a little math.

A) 500,000,000 / 1,000,000 impressions * 30 sales = 1,500 sales
B) 500,000,000 / 1,000,000 impressions * 3 sales = 150 sales

Where would you prefer to send your surfers to to make the most money. A or B?

And again PornHub isn't going from rural village to rural village hooking people up to the internet, handing them a business card, and telling them "The internet is loaded with porn, you should try it sometime. Come to PornHub.com!" with a wink. Almost all of these people would already know there is porn on the internet and would know to use a search engine. Fabian isn't a magician who can magically make new porn surfers appear out of thin air. These surfers were already there. Think about it for a bit.

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signupdamnit

If you gave me $10 for every $2 I gave you then I would succeed too and you would fail. On the whole in simple terms this is basically what happened. They took while most of the industry gave. Except in our case much of that money simply vanished. Destroyed. Much like what would happen to the local pizza industry if one or two local pizza stores starting giving out free pies in massive quantities for an extended period of time.

Look you might like and do business with some of these people. Maybe they bought you drinks and all that but it doesn't take someone with an MBA to see what common sense easily reveals. Just as you can look around downtown Detroit and realize you aren't in Beverly Hills. It's the same with the adult industry in 2012 versus 2002. And it didn't happen because there weren't enough PornHubs, my friend.

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signupdamnit

I shouldn't post so late. My math was off by 10. Fixed above. But it does not change the point. You'd be far better off hoping those surfers come to my site rather than pornhub. Even after paying me 50%. Numbers do not lie nor do they have any agenda. You will be far poorer when everything converts at 1 sale per 1 million impressions on tubes like PornHub and that's all that is left. Don't kid yourself.

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1726cash

Good anwers to all this post. The important here its the tubes its a great way to show people of other part of the work your content. Easy. its about brand name. Hard to built but posibble. Lets continue showing some samples to the visitors, not the full movie, just a preview to show will be sure to enter into your paysite.

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Paul Markham

The first three posts are amazing.

With the names of the clients and the sites you shoot for this is useless advice. I fully understand why you can't give it. However let's assume it's Manwin and the site Brazzers. Or similar. They own a lot of the top Tubes and getting huge swathes of trafficfrom other people in the business.

So are they just taking the sales from the people that are closing and are they taking all of them or are some migrating to the free model?

Good short term, crap for the long term.

Agreed. I wrote an article on B&B about The Moving Market. Here is the opening paragraph on that.

When they stop buying because the free option is better, you have even more reasons to increase traffic. Increasing it by offering more free content. Is like slowly dying by taking small doses of poison. However it's a road once started on it's very hard to get off.

That was never the problem with Tubes. Sites can sell memberships off Tubes sites. It's the ratios.

Every day for many reasons some people stop buying porn. They move to the free model as it's it's better for them. The lowest hanging fruit fall from the tree. When they are gone, the problem stays and hits the next level up. And so on it keeps going. How long before Manwin get to feel the pinch? Without access to their figures no one but a few know.

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Radical Bucks

TUBES suck and whoever invented them needs to be shot! They started out by stealing content and got away with it.

gabe100

Your numbers are way off, let me break it down.

With unique content - remember there's a difference between exclusive and unique...

after a million views and a CTR of 2% and a conversion ratio of 1-300 you can expect roughly 65 sales.

you don't think met art with views in the HUNDREDS of millions is just killing it? Pornpros ( one very smart company ) is blasting passionhd everywhere, why is that? Here's why:

Tens, maybe hundreds of millions of views after only a few months. Everyone is out to emulate MA, Who's the leader? PP. Why is that? See above.

There's one company that had YP on lockdown for years with tens of videos each with tens of millions of views. Apply the metrics above which are conservative. Sick numbers.

Youporn a year ago was like xpics back then. Easy. I know guys that'll say their favorite BAND is The Tubes because of YP.


Look at casting and orgasm, dude built up 5k members in a flash. Now he's probably triple that! Smart guy, everyone bitched him about about his domains and in the background he nailed it.


In this lesson we covered the numbers. In the next we'll cover shady competitors that bump your ratings down to kick you off the top spots that rotate around.

Is this what the old ynot was about? People helping each other...? I wasn't around back then but thats what i heard.

Seriously, this is priceless insight. Take it or leave it.





On 1 million impressions I will make around 30 sales at least on average. On 1 million impressions from tubes such as Pornhub from what I gather it's common to make 1-3 sales on a pay site.

There are only so many potential customers out there. You say that they are bringing it to more people but that doesn't make much sense. Why would they not have been able to find porn before simply by typing a few keywords into Google? For the most part it's the same pool of people we would have had before anyway.

Now let's say there are 500 million potential qualified customers out there which we will simplify to one impression each to make this easier. Do a little math.

A) 500,000,000 / 1,000,000 impressions * 30 sales = 1,500 sales
B) 500,000,000 / 1,000,000 impressions * 3 sales = 150 sales

Where would you prefer to send your surfers to to make the most money. A or B?

And again PornHub isn't going from rural village to rural village hooking people up to the internet, handing them a business card, and telling them "The internet is loaded with porn, you should try it sometime. Come to PornHub.com!" with a wink. Almost all of these people would already know there is porn on the internet and would know to use a search engine. Fabian isn't a magician who can magically make new porn surfers appear out of thin air. These surfers were already there. Think about it for a bit.[/QUOTE]

Paul Markham

Tubes are the major game in town. It's not a decision now of going with a method of promoting that will convert 1-1000 viewers or 1-10,000 viewers. The former is slowly dying.

I fully agree with the rest of the your post. If you produce something 1,000 others can't you have an edge. In terms of costs the odds on anyone having the skills to produce something unique and has mass appeal is slim. not as slim as someone having the money to produce something that's unique and has mass appeal. If you have the money, getting the people is easy.

Radical Bucks put up a thread asking for very good content. Madalton showed a very good clip. now the discussion is, has RB the money. I personally know 2 people as friends who can shoot the content Madalton shot ad can name a few more. If the client has the money.

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