Most Americans Will Now Retire Poorer Than Their Parents - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

DTK · 02-17-2013, 09:27 PM

Anyone looking for a good overview of the financial crisis should check out Inside Job

sarettah · 02-17-2013, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt 26z

What an idiotic thing to say. Banks did not force loans upon buyers.

Just because a bank approved you for an $X loan doesn't mean you had to take the full amount. It's on YOU to figure out how much you can really afford.

To borrow your analogy, it's like a woman having sex with a guy and regretting it the next day so she cries rape. That's what borrowers are doing.

He lumped everyone who lost out into the group who borrowed too heavily.

There have been many many people who have lost pretty much everything who did nothing wrong. They lost their jobs and from there lost everything else. The people who defaulted on loans are just the tip of the iceberg.

I stand by the analogy, you don't blame all the victims because some of them appear to have brought it onto themselves.

.

GregE · 02-17-2013, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Oh.. you mean the same dipshits that bought homes, property, cars and all sorts of other shit they couldn't afford until they completely crashed the economy with their idiotic spending/borrowing?

Boo fucking hoo

They crashed the economy?

Individual Americans have been doing dumb shit for the past 70 years and more. But somehow they never succeeded in crashing the entire economy before.

Why do you suppose that is?

Gator · 02-17-2013, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Due

People who buy houses/things they can't afford = people who follow their dreams.
If you can't afford living your dream then reality will catch up sooner or later.
People who lost everything blame people who have what they want

I totally don't understand this mentality. Where is this idea coming from?

GregE · 02-17-2013, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

GrantMercury...how can that be? Pres. Obama is changing all that right? His policies stopped us from falling into a great depression and judging from the way he feels from the State Of The Union Address...everything is gonna kick ass.

Back when "trickle down" economics was the rage (Reagan years for instance), everybody was retiring richer than their parents did.

Other than the housing market crashing in 2008...which in turn crashed the banks and brought down the economy...everything was still kicking ass. (and that was all caused by CONGRESS deregulations starting in the Clinton years)...

You realize, don't you, that the Bush administration had 8 years to address Clinton's deregulations?

If they were such an obvious recipe for disaster, why wasn't the problem addressed then?

DTK · 02-17-2013, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarettah

He lumped everyone who lost out into the group who borrowed too heavily.

There have been many many people who have lost pretty much everything who did nothing wrong. They lost their jobs and from there lost everything else. The people who defaulted on loans are just the tip of the iceberg.

I stand by the analogy, you don't blame all the victims because some of them appear to have brought it onto themselves.

.

Exactly. The collateral damage was massive.

Again, check out Inside Job for a blow-by-blow of the Crime of the Last Couple Centuries.

DTK · 02-17-2013, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregE

You realize, don't you, that the Bush administration had 8 years to address Clinton's deregulations?

If they were such an obvious recipe for disaster, why wasn't the problem addressed then?

Because they're all pretty much on the same team.

GregE · 02-17-2013, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTK

Because they're all pretty much on the same team.

Precisely.

Gator · 02-17-2013, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapass

The banks didn't rip off the homeowner. They ripped off the investor. Rewatch "too big to fail". Then Bush/Obama turned it back on the American people.

Splitting hairs. Or that is the trickle down effect.

Just being a smart ass now.

GrantMercury · 02-17-2013, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTK

Anyone looking for a good overview of the financial crisis should check out Inside Job

Thanks for that.

DTK · 02-17-2013, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregE

Precisely.

Yeah, but good luck getting people locked into partisan thought bubbles to see this. "It's the republicans. No, it's the democrats." Bullshit. This has all been happening at a level above politics and ideologies. And of course, following the money is not encouraged

Gator · 02-17-2013, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTK

Yeah, but good luck getting people locked into partisan thought bubbles to see this. "It's the republicans. No, it's the democrats." Bullshit. This has all been happening at a level above politics and ideologies. And of course, following the money is not encouraged

Good post.

Robbie · 02-18-2013, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregE

You realize, don't you, that the Bush administration had 8 years to address Clinton's deregulations?

If they were such an obvious recipe for disaster, why wasn't the problem addressed then?

2 reasons...
1. Everything was going great. Nobody changes things when it's working good.

2. Too much money was being made by politician's friends...which in turn gives the politicians more money and power too.

It's those same career politicians sitting in the Senate and Congress who caused it to happen and who now blame everyone but themselves. And now they are the ones who are going to "fix" it? lol

GregE · 02-18-2013, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

2 reasons...
1. Everything was going great. Nobody changes things when it's working good.

2. Too much money was being made by politician's friends...which in turn gives the politicians more money and power too.

It's those same career politicians sitting in the Senate and Congress who caused it to happen and who now blame everyone but themselves. And now they are the ones who are going to "fix" it? lol

So we're agreed then that this isn't about Democrats and Republicans per say ??

So . . . the question now is how do we get out of this mess without punishing the innocent parties, i.e. the American populace?

Keep in mind that if across the board sacrifice is required it needs to be:

a) Shared by all.
b) Preceded by vigorous prosecutions (or at least convincing condemnation) of the most direct culprits (i.e the big banks and Wall Street)

Otherwise, the masses will never sign on to it.

And, as we all know, politicians live in naked fear of the masses every four years.

This ain't gonna be easy for anybody.

Robbie · 02-18-2013, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregE

So we're agreed then that this isn't about Democrats and Republicans per say ??

So . . . the question now is how do we get out of this mess without punishing the innocent parties, i.e. the American populace?

Keep in mind that if across the board sacrifice is required it needs to be:

a) Shared by all.
b) Preceded by vigorous prosecutions (or at least convincing condemnation) of the most direct culprits (i.e the big banks and Wall Street)

Otherwise, the masses will never sign on to it.

And, as we all know, politicians live in naked fear of the masses every four years.

This ain't gonna be easy for anybody.

I don't believe the banks and "wall street" are the problem at all.

It's the career politicians who whore themselves out to everybody that are the real problem. The big banks and "wall street" aren't doing anything that any of us wouldn't do...they look out for themselves and try to figure out ways to make more money.

Washington, D.C. has (over the decades) put itself in such a position of power that it literally holds the power of who is and who isn't successful. Which, of course, means that if you want the rules written to your benefit you have to give lots of money to a lot of lifetime politicians in The Senate and The House.

The REAL solution to all of this is term limits on Congress and The Senate.

I feel that if The Senate, The House and the President were all limited to ONE 6 year term it would take care of a lot of this bullshit.

But that ain't gonna happen. So career politicians will continue with their corruption and at the same time continue spending our country into more debt than we will ever be able to repay.

Bryan G · 02-18-2013, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

I had access to outrageous loans on outrageous houses that I couldn't afford, just like everyone else. I didn't take one. I'm okay.

What happened there? Was I? *gasp*... responsible?

Exactly, when I bought my house 3 years ago I qualified for a $500,000 mortgage. I bought a house for $325,000 instead. Live within your means.

bronco67 · 02-18-2013, 09:14 AM

We're in this mess because the culture has shifted from inventing/producing/manufacturing to "scam a buck as quickly as possible with no actual work".

OneHungLo · 02-18-2013, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gator

Hey, if you are an investor just say so, don't make analogies that can be twisted this way or that.

As an investor of course you want to make money. Then blaming the home buyer for failure how is that any different than the home buyer blaming the investor?

Truth is you have to blame both. The banks wanted to sell anyone a mortgage because they could just turn around and sell it to the next guy for a profit. Then you have to blame irresponsible people for taking a loan they could never afford.

Then you have guys like me who would never take a loan like that, pay taxes, etc., who end up getting fucked by the 2 dipshits that caused the mess.

grumpy · 02-18-2013, 10:46 AM

i think my sig is in place here.

Biggy · 02-18-2013, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Are you saying that kids TODAY in 2013 are going to be poorer when they retire? Well of course they will! The govt. is going to tax the hell out anybody who becomes successful. That's what the President pretty plainly has said and won an election running on.

So just by the fact that it's going to be harder and harder to accumulate wealth...and IF you do the govt. is going to tax it hard and stop you from building it up...well, how COULD the next generation ever reach the heights of the current one?

Makes perfect sense to me, and has nothing to do with trickle down economics.

I like this post a lot, and I agree 100%.

Higher taxes + paired with low interest rates, basically help take the American dream away. That's money that can be saved. The higher your taxes, the harder it is to accumulate wealth.

People say "oh, its only 2%, oh its only 4%!" - think about this in terms of replicating a financial investment. 2-4% + per year in extra savings, then invested at a risk free rate (which by the way is being kept artificially low by the gov't), over time, thats a lot of missed $.

So today, everyone is basically getting taxed higher. And also, interest rates are so low, you can no longer go to the bank for a decent risk-free return.

Yes, its simple math that its going to be harder for the next generation to save and build up their wealth. Our parents were able to buy more affordable homes, go to the bank and get a different interest rate, etc.

Some of it is the president / governments fault, and a lot of it is simply more people vying for the same resources, plus the dynamics of our population changing. The government sure isn't making it any easier though.

_Richard_ · 02-18-2013, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggy

I like this post a lot, and I agree 100%.

Higher taxes + paired with low interest rates, basically help take the American dream away. That's money that can be saved. The higher your taxes, the harder it is to accumulate wealth.

People say "oh, its only 2%, oh its only 4%!" - think about this in terms of replicating a financial investment. 2-4% + per year in extra savings, then invested at a risk free rate (which by the way is being kept artificially low by the gov't), over time, thats a lot of missed $.

So today, everyone is basically getting taxed higher. And also, interest rates are so low, you can no longer go to the bank for a decent risk-free return.

Yes, its simple math that its going to be harder for the next generation to save and build up their wealth. Our parents were able to buy more affordable homes, go to the bank and get a different interest rate, etc.

Some of it is the president / governments fault, and a lot of it is simply more people vying for the same resources, plus the dynamics of our population changing. The government sure isn't making it any easier though.

didn't the US have 'higher taxes' paired with 'low interest rates' for most of the century?

and JUST deregulated enough to create this entire fiasco?

GrantMercury · 02-18-2013, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronco67

We're in this mess because the culture has shifted from inventing/producing/manufacturing to "scam a buck as quickly as possible with no actual work".

Inclined to agree.

Minte · 02-18-2013, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

didn't the US have 'higher taxes' paired with 'low interest rates' for most of the century?

and JUST deregulated enough to create this entire fiasco?

No,
When the tax rate was high there were many deductions that were available. No one paid anywhere near the amount they are paying today.

_Richard_ · 02-18-2013, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

No,
When the tax rate was high there were many deductions that were available. No one paid anywhere near the amount they are paying today.

is that some joke about inflation?

Are you just fucking around or should i pull some stats to knock your mouth-breather bullshit outta the park

TheSquealer · 02-18-2013, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronco67

We're in this mess because the culture has shifted from inventing/producing/manufacturing to "scam a buck as quickly as possible with no actual work".

I agree with you 100%. The .com boom had a lot to do with this. Before that, people invested in companies based on annual returns, related to the actual revenue of the company. In the late 90's, all of the sudden IPOs were happening to companies with no business plan, no history, no revenue and in many cases, no product. Stock prices became 100% detached from actual numbers of the business as did investors.

Couple that with a generation of people who got a participation trophy for everything they did, where every childrens tv show tells them they're "special", where teens are all suddenly getting credit cards and a culture where living beyond ones means became the rule and was everyone instead of just "that asshole down the street", and everything was obviously going to crash.

The younger a person is, the less aware they are of these massive cultural shifts and the more misplaced their blame is.

Its total insanity to me that people here put ZERO responsibility for everyone living beyond their means on the individual and in turn blame big, "evil" corporations who simply made money available to total idiots.

woj · 02-18-2013, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

is that some joke about inflation?

Are you just fucking around or should i pull some stats to knock your mouth-breather bullshit outta the park

lets see yours stats

L-Pink · 02-18-2013, 03:24 PM

The government has also made privately held cash worthless. You can't grow cash anymore. The fed loans money for nothing to banks, banks in turn pay nothing to private individuals for deposits.

DWB · 02-18-2013, 03:32 PM

This is simply not true... a full recovery is jussssssst around the corner. And besides... green shoots!

woj · 02-18-2013, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

is that some joke about inflation?

Are you just fucking around or should i pull some stats to knock your mouth-breather bullshit outta the park

I'll show you mine:

lets look at year 1980 and 2010 (just for easy comparison 30 years apart)

1980 1198B in tax revenues, population in 1980: 227M = 5.28k/person
2010 1928B in tax revenues, population in 2010: 309M = 6.24k/person

so, instead of 5.28k/person we are paying 6.24k/person = 18% increase...

so after taking population growth and inflation into account, we are paying 18% more in taxes than we did in 1980

source:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=200
http://www.census.gov/popest/data/historical/

_Richard_ · 02-18-2013, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

lets see yours stats

stats are the past! lets paly with the present

google 'why 70% tax rates won't work' and see how many articles you get

and google 'why 70% tax rates will work' and see how many articles you get

the entire internet can't, cough, be wrong!

_Richard_ · 02-18-2013, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

I'll show you mine:

lets look at year 1980 and 2010 (just for easy comparison 30 years apart)

1980 1198B in tax revenues, population in 1980: 227M = 5.28k/person
2010 1928B in tax revenues, population in 2010: 309M = 6.24k/person

so, instead of 5.28k/person we are paying 6.24k/person = 18% increase...

so after taking population growth and inflation into account, we are paying 18% more in taxes than we did in 1980

source:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=200
http://www.census.gov/popest/data/historical/

but Reagan-or cut the taxes! how could you guys be paying more per person in taxes, if it's been the lowest ever since the 80s?

Mutt · 02-18-2013, 03:57 PM

for a very significant % of the population the family home was the basis of their retirement and then their estate passed on to their kids.

a middle class young family bought a house in 1960 for $15K, 40 years later that house in most places was worth anywhere from $150K - $500K

the children of that family, baby boomers, bought homes in the 70's and 80's for $50K-100K and when they retire, some already have, those homes are worth $300K - $1M

principal residence sales are tax free

today with the low interest rates, even cashing in on a $750K home doesn't put you on easy street retirement wise.

people wait until way too late to plan for retirement - the strain the aging baby boomers will put on taxpayers is going to be historic.

lower taxes just aren't possible, not without a lot of pain caused to millions - so the pain will be shared and spread out among the middle class and rich , which is how it should be in a human society. it would be nice to put the onus back on the individual again but we are so far past that it makes conservatives look delusional

the banksters are pure evil, not one of them who caused the second biggest economic collapse in history is wearing an orange jumpsuit today and that is outrageous.

Sly · 02-18-2013, 04:02 PM

Here is a question for the younger guys… how many of you have retirement accounts in place?

I have two of them, I set them up when I was 26 I believe and I have a few other assets that can go towards retirement as well. Anyone can start saving/investing for their retirement with just a few dollars a week. It's not a lot, but it's something. And anyone that says they can't spare five dollars a week for their future is full of shit. Piriod.

Minte · 02-18-2013, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

is that some joke about inflation?

Are you just fucking around or should i pull some stats to knock your mouth-breather bullshit outta the park

You would fired on the spot if you worked for me Richard. There are hundreds of people standing in line for any job.

_Richard_ · 02-18-2013, 05:09 PM

GrantMercury · 02-18-2013, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

Are you just fucking around or should i pull some stats to knock your mouth-breather bullshit outta the park

_Richard_ · 02-18-2013, 07:03 PM

don't have me killed bro!

just internetinjas going on up in hurrrrr

DTK · 02-18-2013, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

I don't believe the banks and "wall street" are the problem at all.

It's the career politicians who whore themselves out to everybody that are the real problem.

I sincerely believe if you start by watching Inside Job and look into the 'revolving door' between wall st & government, you'll start re-thinking your opinion.

DTK · 02-18-2013, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt

the banksters are pure evil, not one of them who caused the second biggest economic collapse in history is wearing an orange jumpsuit today and that is outrageous.

Well said.

It's because they're running the show. Since at least 1980, Treasury, SEC etc have been stocked with Wall Streeters. In other words, the foxes have been guarding the henhouse for 30+ years.

This includes 'hope and change' obama. the biggest contributors to his 2008 campaign were wall street firms. Is it any shocker his 'justice' department hasn't taken any meaningful action against these banksters?

Guys, political ideology is just for show. Doesn't matter which republicrats inhabit the white house or congress. Virtually all of them serve the same masters

_Richard_ · 02-18-2013, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

don't have me killed bro!

just internetinjas going on up in hurrrrr

funny, swear i was responding to something

GrantMercury · 02-18-2013, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTK

Guys, political ideology is just for show. Doesn't matter which republicrats inhabit the white house or congress. Virtually all of them serve the same masters

It matters. I know Obama took WS money. Lots of Dems do. It's not a secret.

But compare the Democratic party to the cruel, hateful, batshit-crazy, science-denying, anti-labor, anti-education, war profiteering, bigoted, bloodthirsty scoundrels in the GOP. You really think there's no difference?

DTK · 02-18-2013, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantMercury

It matters. I know Obama took WS money. Lots of Dems do. It's not a secret.

But compare the Democratic party to the cruel, hateful, batshit-crazy, science-denying, anti-labor, anti-education, war profiteering, bigoted, bloodthirsty scoundrels in the GOP. You really think there's no difference?

I'm specifically talking about economics. On that point, they are all on the same team.

L-Pink · 02-18-2013, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantMercury

But compare the Democratic party to the cruel, hateful, batshit-crazy, science-denying, anti-labor, anti-education, war profiteering, bigoted, bloodthirsty scoundrels in the GOP.

Damn you have a problem. Why the bitter hate in every political post you make?

.

GrantMercury · 02-18-2013, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTK

I'm specifically talking about economics. On that point, they are all on the same team.

Well, Obama proposed raising the min wage, and the Rethugs wailed and gnashed teeth. That falls under economics, right?

GrantMercury · 02-18-2013, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-Pink

Damn you have a problem. Why the bitter hate in every political post you make?

.

Because I'm paying attention to what's going on.

L-Pink · 02-18-2013, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantMercury

Because I'm paying attention to what's going on.

Sure scooter, sure ?..

.

DTK · 02-18-2013, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantMercury

Well, Obama proposed raising the min wage, and the Rethugs wailed and gnashed teeth. That falls under economics, right?

Nitpicking. That's microscopic compared to what I'm talking about, and I think you know that.

grumpy · 02-19-2013, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

I'll show you mine:

lets look at year 1980 and 2010 (just for easy comparison 30 years apart)

1980 1198B in tax revenues, population in 1980: 227M = 5.28k/person
2010 1928B in tax revenues, population in 2010: 309M = 6.24k/person

so, instead of 5.28k/person we are paying 6.24k/person = 18% increase...

so after taking population growth and inflation into account, we are paying 18% more in taxes than we did in 1980

source:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=200
http://www.census.gov/popest/data/historical/

love those calculations. in 30 years the gasprices have trippled.

woj · 02-19-2013, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpy

love those calculations. in 30 years the gasprices have trippled.

The numbers are "in constant (FY 2005 dollars)", meaning adjusted for inflation... so higher costs like gas are taken into account...

government just like any business should be becoming more efficient over time... so cost per citizen should be going down, not up...

_Richard_ · 02-19-2013, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpy

love those calculations. in 30 years the gasprices have trippled.

but reagan-or can't be wrong

02-17-2013, 09:27 PM	#51
DTK Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The 510 Posts: 4,545	Anyone looking for a good overview of the financial crisis should check out Inside Job __________________ Arguing whether the Democratic or Republican party is better is like debating which steaming pile of shit is slightly less stinky.

02-18-2013, 09:14 AM	#67
bronco67 Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 29,035	We're in this mess because the culture has shifted from inventing/producing/manufacturing to "scam a buck as quickly as possible with no actual work". __________________

02-18-2013, 10:46 AM	#69
grumpy Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 9,870	i think my sig is in place here. __________________ Don't let greediness blur your vision \| You gotta let some shit slide icq - 441-456-888

02-18-2013, 03:57 PM	#82
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	for a very significant % of the population the family home was the basis of their retirement and then their estate passed on to their kids. a middle class young family bought a house in 1960 for $15K, 40 years later that house in most places was worth anywhere from $150K - $500K the children of that family, baby boomers, bought homes in the 70's and 80's for $50K-100K and when they retire, some already have, those homes are worth $300K - $1M principal residence sales are tax free today with the low interest rates, even cashing in on a $750K home doesn't put you on easy street retirement wise. people wait until way too late to plan for retirement - the strain the aging baby boomers will put on taxpayers is going to be historic. lower taxes just aren't possible, not without a lot of pain caused to millions - so the pain will be shared and spread out among the middle class and rich , which is how it should be in a human society. it would be nice to put the onus back on the individual again but we are so far past that it makes conservatives look delusional the banksters are pure evil, not one of them who caused the second biggest economic collapse in history is wearing an orange jumpsuit today and that is outrageous. __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

02-18-2013, 04:02 PM	#83
Sly Let's do some business! Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 31,244	Here is a question for the younger guys… how many of you have retirement accounts in place? I have two of them, I set them up when I was 26 I believe and I have a few other assets that can go towards retirement as well. Anyone can start saving/investing for their retirement with just a few dollars a week. It's not a lot, but it's something. And anyone that says they can't spare five dollars a week for their future is full of shit. Piriod. __________________ Vacares - Web Hosting, Domains, O365, Security & More - Paxum and BTC Accepted Fully Managed VPS, Daily Backups Included - Starting at $25. Contact for more info. Sell me your: Paysites and Hosting Company. Buy my: Aged Domains and Sites

02-18-2013, 03:24 PM	#77
L-Pink working on my tan Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida/Kentucky Posts: 39,152	The government has also made privately held cash worthless. You can't grow cash anymore. The fed loans money for nothing to banks, banks in turn pay nothing to private individuals for deposits.

02-18-2013, 03:32 PM	#78
DWB Giggity Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: S.E. Asia Posts: 31,779	This is simply not true... a full recovery is jussssssst around the corner. And besides... green shoots!

02-18-2013, 05:09 PM	#85
_Richard_ Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Vancouver Posts: 30,985	__________________ s k y: stxrichard \| webmaster darkhall com

02-18-2013, 07:03 PM	#87
_Richard_ Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Vancouver Posts: 30,985	don't have me killed bro! just internetinjas going on up in hurrrrr __________________ s k y: stxrichard \| webmaster darkhall com