TheSquealer

It's important to understand that you don't have to be mean or a dick or get an attitude. It can be playful and fun. You have to be something thats congruent with your personality... you just need to stop doing some simple things that demonstrates weakness, lower social value etc.. It doesn't have to be a radical personality change. I mean, you can jokingly say "i'm shocked you haven't offered to buy me a drink yet" to a girl you just started talking to and have a funny reply to why you never buy women drinks or something or that disqualifies yourself as being interested in her like "you're not the type of girl i buy drinks for" .... where she obviously asks "what type of girl do you buy drinks for" and you have a funny reply ready,... or something that piques her interest, makes her ask more questions and leads into another funny conversation and keep the conversation moving with scripted stuff if you need to, until you don't need to.

__________________
If you don't like that Elon Musk bought twitter,... just build your own and stop crying about it.

Jel

in case this isn't a troll thread, this is perfect advice for everyone anyway. Be true to yourself. Fuck games.

As it happens, I'm a lot like squealer in using cutting/seemingly mean humour as a defence mechanism, amongst a fuckton of other things, and also funnily enough, I've never got so much pussy (albeit spiradically and in bursts) as the last 4 years since I came out of my marriage (with the 1st 14 months to get over the split in the first place), I'm sure thanks to being pretty distant, not wanting a relationship in any way, shape, or form (though not being a dick about anything), not running to answer texts or fb messages etc - not because I was running any game - far from it in fact - but purely because I was being true to myself for the first time in years.

When I was ready, when the time was right, whatever you want to call it, and I'd had enough of one nighters, I met a girl who I've not too long ago started a relationship with, and that was by being 'nice' and 'attentive' etc - not out of any game plan, but just by being true to myself at that period of my life.

Just in case it hasn't sunk in for anyone who may be interested lol - be true to yourself always, and you'll see how that's the best thing you can ever do

CaptainHowdy

True. Who the hell is oneself anyway?? It's all fiction.

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WannabeMiddleMan

That's hard hitting, thank you. I do want to be happy with myself, and maybe that's something I need to actively work on.

ITraffic

Jel

WannabeMiddleMan

Very true, this is probably the furthest I've ever been in terms of conversation, interaction and deep feelings for a girl. Actually thinking about it now, it might be the actual furthest. So this could explain why I'm so hang up.

This is turning into a must see movie for me!

I wish this was a troll attempt to be honest. I've already wasted too many hours, too much money and too much emotion on this girl. I need to get over this so I can live my life again.

WannabeMiddleMan

I think you hit the nail on the head, I would describe myself as a people pleaser.

If my friends say they want to go for Chinese and I really feel like Pizza, I would go to Chinese and not say a thing.

If I really want to watch a new movie that has come out, but they want to watch Sci fi (which I don't enjoy), then I would go with them.

By doing this, by always doing what they want and by me not putting my foot down and doing things that I enjoy, I think it leads to me not knowing who I am and what I enjoy.

This could actually be my main issue - that I'm a people pleaser/push over and therefore don't know what I am, and therefore can't expect to portray myself to someone else if I don't even know who I am?

Jel

not sure I buy that your 3rd post in 3 years was this thread (after your other 2 posts also being today), and the total opening up of some pretty personal stuff, but it's turned into an interesting discussion anyway

jimmycooper

The problem with using a scripted line with a prepared response is that sometimes the girl's response will not warrant the prepared response and when that happens it can throw you off to where you don't know what to say. That's why I've hardly ever really used 'lines'. I like to stay limber. I think the only line that I've actually ever used multiple times was simply 'Nice face!'. It's a complement and it's funny (at least to me) but you never know what the response will be, so there's no sense in preparing one.

WannabeMiddleMan

That sounds awesome, make them work for it! Usually I'm doing all the chasing.

Doing things to not lower my social value is something that I definitely need to keep in mind, I can see that I am lowering my value which is extremely detrimental.

I don't want to show weakness, because that bruises the confidence and hurts the image.

This is something I need to keep in mind and need to avoid.

aztecboi2003

Maybe you might enjoy the company of another man. Just to help you get over her and find yourself.

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Petite Ashley

WannabeMiddleMan

Its actually my first post, the other posts today were testers.

I actually visit this forum regularly (almost daily, if not weekly), and I know the posters on here say it like it is - meaning they don't take shit and I felt this is the perfect place to try and get some straight forward advice, and more honestly brutal feedback such as grow a pair - because sitting alone listening to romantic songs and looking at a few photos of her and I at events is a bit stupid and I'm over having these emotions holding me down.

TheSquealer

The point is that you have to start somewhere and with something. No way is perfect. But winging it is not good for someone who has to start from the beginning. It's always better to have prepared topics of discussion, lines/jokes etc adn use them and learn to use them better and better until you don't need them.

;)

__________________
If you don't like that Elon Musk bought twitter,... just build your own and stop crying about it.

Jel

I'm terrible (have been in the past anyway) for being a people pleaser, in certain situations. all I'll say is I've learnt in the last few years that if I say no to doing something I don't want to do, people aren't going to dislike me for it. For me personally it hasn't meant I don't know who I am, so I can't comment on that, but seems a person like you describes has a lot of issues with over-thinking and over-analyzing, and those 2 traits I definitely have. It's a fucker though as it ties in with being able to see many perspectives/angles on a subject, whereas most people, I'd venture to guess, have a fixed opinion. So then what happens is you come over as argumentative, when in fact it's just you can emotionally detach, and see those shades of grey. But I digress :-)

WannabeMiddleMan

Thank you for the input, I like that advice, I need to focus on myself but I'm definitely longing for someone to enjoy special times with, someone to take on dates, to enjoy new experiences etc - but they need to be worth while and obviously they need to appreciate it.

I see relationships as an investment, both financially but more importantly emotionally. I think I need to guard myself a little more and not go all in, as with this case.

I want to be Harvey, how Harvey handles business, how he handles conflict, how he handles negativity and how he walks into a room and demands attention by simply being there. Thank you, I'm going to actively try and apply the Harvey persona into my life.

Have you watched the series Suits?

TheSquealer

Another thing to consider... if you want to be interesting to women. BE interesting. Do interesting things. Have interesting experiences. get out, take pics, have fun and be fun. Fill your facebook page full of you being awesome and interesting and having fun. gives you lots to talk about. Go skydiving. Go white water rafting. Take a cool road trip and take lots of cool pics. Go to concerts and races and fights. etc etc etc. What would James Bond do? Get to it. Always have tons of shit to talk about and sometimes be too busy doing awesome things to return a text or call or to meet for lunch and then show the pics when you finally get a chance to meet up with her - if she asks.

__________________
If you don't like that Elon Musk bought twitter,... just build your own and stop crying about it.

Jel

never once used anything scripted, or any 'line' or 'routine' etc, so guess I've been lucky in the fact I didn't have to do that shit as I'm naturally hilarious and quick witted as fuck, along with being extremely modest. I fucking cringe whenever I hear anyone using scripted stuff, and am fucking amazed any girl falls for that shit. In fact I'm sure they ignore the script the guy is using, and go along with it rather than anything, based on instant attraction, or not.

The Porn Nerd

Here's the bottom line mate: you have to act as if you do not need them or want them then they will want you.

It's like going into a bank for a loan. When you actually NEED the money you will probably get turned down for this reason or that. But if you have tons of money banks will fall all over themselves to give you more.

This is why I mentioned Cary Grant and TheSquealer mentioned James Bond. Act as if you are the person you want to become and you WILL become that person. You are spending way too much time here "taking notes" when mostly everything we are telling you comes from an unconscious place, a natural place without having to think about it.

There are 4 stages of mastery. Anyone who has driven a stick shift car will know what I am talking about.

Stage 1: Unconscious INcompetance: You don't know jack shit and you don't even know you don't know jack shit.

Stage 2: Conscious Incompetance: You don't know jack shit but now at least you KNOW you don't know jack shit - and are opening to learning.

Stage 3: Conscious Competance: You are getting better but you still have to "think" about it, check your notes, follow a script. Until...

Stage 4: UNconscious Competance: You just KNOW how to do something. Driving that stick shift is so natural now you don't even think about the clutch or shifting. It's become a part of you.

It takes time and experience to get to Stage 4 in any endeavor but if you are aware of where you stand (I am guessing Stage 2 right now) you can get there much faster.

In other words: Zen. "Be, do not do." Is that Zen? LOL

(Have not seen Suits but will check it out for sure.)

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WannabeMiddleMan

I was at a club this weekend and I met a lovely girl, this is how it went down.

I saw she had a local registration plate, which was good - so she walked into the club with another female, she looked around and then went to the balcony. The whole time I was observing.

The two of them stayed there and I was trying to muster up the courage to go talk to them. I thought maybe they didn't know anyone, but I wasn't sure.

A few minutes later a guy walked up to them, and they chatted. Now I was getting pissed with myself because that could have been me.

Then they went into the club and another guy spoke to them, now I was in third place.

Eventually they sat close to me and I mustered up the courage, the one I liked was alone so I put my hand out, introduced myself and asked the basic questions such as:

1. Do you come here often
2. What do you do, we chatted about her job, education etc and then mine
3. I asked about pets, I'm a huge cat fan and that gives me an opportunity to show them pictures of my cat on my phone. (hope this isn't showing weakness?)
4. I show them a picture of when I had a beard and I ask their opinion if it looked good
5. We chatted about some other mundane things

I usually offer her a drink after some chatting, or if I feel the chatting has got slower or has stopped. If they say no I am a little taken back, but I try to keep the convo going then.

At this stage I started to sweat, but I could feel it was a lot of sweat, the type that sweat beads started to form on my forehead and under my nose etc (sadly this happens when I'm nervous or in a sticky situation - I sweat, a lot!).

So I faked a phone call to walk away and wipe the sweat with a handkerchief.

I got a drink and later got back, now a little cooled down and we chatted a little more.

This above is basically how all my encounters have gone so far, any advice on what I'm doing? Are my topics terrible? They do seem boring, but that's how I've mainly been doing it?

The Porn Nerd

Sorry, one last pithy thing to add: I used to worry about how I looked, what I wore, how much I weighed, etc etc. Then one day it hit me like a lightning bolt. The ONLY thing I have to be to a woman is...interesting. That's it. that's the secret of "How did HE get HER?" and why you see gorgeous women with fugly shmoos. The ugly shmoos have no choice but to be interesting. If you have any looks at all then you become James Bond or Cary Grant.

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cosis

jimmycooper

Good point. I guess it's just been so long since I've had any problems with starting a conversation that I've forgotten how much of a bitch it was back in the day.

GAMEFINEST

Talk to as many girls are possible, go out, socialize.

__________________
Compound interest.

TheSquealer

My point was that you can write your own script and use it. Just notes of topics and lines and jokes. Not use canned lines from a pick up site that everyone has heard a 1000 times. However, that works just fine as well and you can adjust as needed based on feedback/response. What you say to initiate a conversation is not as important as the next things you say. My personal thing is to be different and be yourself at the same time. Pickup is sales. Usually a sales pitch starts with a retarded/transparent opener... but if you are interested in the product, you'll keep listening until they fully blow it or sell you on it.

__________________
If you don't like that Elon Musk bought twitter,... just build your own and stop crying about it.

Jel

To borrow a couple of phrases:

1. The more you tighten your grip, the more will slip through your fingers

2. life is like a fart... if you have to force it, it's likely to turn into a shit

Relax, go with the flow of life, don't force things, be like water that naturally runs around rocks and gets to where it gets to, not the water that crashes into the rocks over and over

Sounds like tree-hugging hippie bullshit I realise lol, but once that became clear for me, it made all the difference in the world. That may not be your thing, horses for courses and all that, but it's just another way of looking at the 'be true to yourself' thing

WannabeMiddleMan

I'm the same, I over analyse and over think everything which usually takes away my happiness.

For example, I recently had a check up at the Doctors and I was asked to pee in a cup. I asked the nurse if this was for a drug test, to which she replied, no it was to test for proteins.

A few hours later I thought about that conversation and I was shocked that I asked that, I think I basically gave her the impression that I was worried about drugs etc. And then I worry about how she looked at me, does she now think I take drugs, is she guessing what drugs I might have taken etc.

Thinking about it now, it would have been much better to ask, "What does the urine test, test?"

TheSquealer

__________________
If you don't like that Elon Musk bought twitter,... just build your own and stop crying about it.

cosis

I got the girl I liked when I stopped being a wimp and grew a pair. Then she was (and still is) all over it.

WannabeMiddleMan

Thank you, that's a good idea - I've listed a few topics that I mentally have on hand and that I use when talking to new girls, if you have any suggestions please add them.

I would like to be more interesting, and like you say - that will take some pressure off on the other aspects of looks etc.

That's the spirit, I would love to be able to say that one day

Thank you, that might be the best way to learn, make mistakes and meet more girls and therefore not get hang up.

Please take a look at the scenario I posted above, do you have any other suggestions for topics that I should use?

PS: Thank you for all your advice so far, I'm definitely learning a lot here.

Yeah, maybe I am rushing and there shouldn't be a reason to rush just yet

mineistaken

You can still be nice guy, but nice meaning decent-good heart guy, not needy-bitchy type nice. Be decent guy, but also introduce some alpha male elements into the mix.
If you tried to completely change from nice guy to bad boy you would probably fail because it would not flow naturally for yo at all.
So just start with eliminating neediness out of your interaction and add some indifference instead. For starters.

jimmycooper

You should want to look good, dress nice, and be in good shape for yourself because you're the one that needs to look into the mirror every day. Nobody likes a fat slob. I'd rather look good and get no pussy than be a fat slob who gets pussy. Maybe it's just me. Luckily, I look pretty good and pull plenty of wool so I don't have to worry about it.

Jel

yeah I agree mate I ad-lib every single time, purely out of luck of being able to do so. If I know how to do one thing on this earth, it's how to start and continue a conversation with just about anyone if I so choose. I was referring to those lines from sites, and groups of 17 year old boys passed around as 'gold' etc

WannabeMiddleMan

Very true, I wouldn't consider myself to be extremely adventurous - meaning I don't think I'll go Sky diving anytime soon, but I could definitely get out there and try new things, I've been wanting to go to a Shooting Range for the first time, things like that.

That would definitely be something to talk about. I need to do more cool things!

Mutt

The vast majority of males fear rejection - and EVERY male gets rejected and that includes the top alpha males with looks, money and status. They just get rejected less and by better looking females. With every rejection the fear grows with many guys. It's a numbers game pure and simple, every guy I know who is great with women either naturally doesn't care about rejection much or he's trained himself not to care. He'll hit on 10 women knowing all that matters is 1. For a guy with a lot going for him he may hit on 1 of 5, another guy it might be 1 in 20.

The other fact of life is that people need to 'know their role', 'stay in their lane', 'don't punch out of your weight class' - if you're a '6 out of 10' guy, you're not ever going to date a 8/9/10, without paying for it. Until a guy comes to terms with that and lowers his expectations porn and escorts will have to do. Escorting, thanks to the Internet, continues to get more and more popular.

Sociopaths do well with women because they have supreme confidence, ill placed often but that doesn't matter to women, until it's too late and the sociopath has ruined their life.

__________________

WannabeMiddleMan

Definitely check out Suits, I think you'll be as hooked as I am.

Thank you for that explanation, very useful - you're right - I don't think I'm good at this, but I do realise its a problem and I'm going to actively put in work and try to improve, which is a great start.

I have a goal of wanting to get a girls number from the shopping centre or to pick up a server, that would be pretty awesome!

WannabeMiddleMan

I'm actually at that place at the moment, I'm trying to make myself toughen up and basically train myself, I'm telling myself "Life is a bitch, therefore I need to learn to fuck it".

I agree, rejection is the worry - but I need to learn to deal with the sting and be able to get into the next girl, fearing rejection will stop me from getting any where.

It's those instances where I wanted to talk to a girl, but I didn't have the courage that I regret, no the girl I offered a drink and she said no.

I try and remind myself of those opportunities that I chickened out and didn't talk to in order to avoid them again, I say to myself: "No regrets" and then I walk up and introduce myself and hope for the best

Jel

hahaha, exactly the kind of shit I do

fwiw, I now just accept (most of the time anyway) that's part of what makes me me, and all the good shit that makes me easy-going, approachable, mostly friendly, blahblah etcetc because if I don't, I end up over-analyzing *that* shit, and on the vicious cycle goes.

jimmycooper

Wise words.

jimmycooper

I used to be like that but I'm not anymore and I'm not sure why that is because I never made a conscientious effort to change. Maybe it's just because I stopped caring but I really can't say for certain.

seeric

Never put anyone ahead of your lively hood and revenue generating means. If you do that you are doomed. If you can't work and generate revenue, you're no use to any one.

Put yourself and your revenue generation first.

TheSquealer

Why third place? Thats so easy to change. Be creative.

Silently gesture for her friend to come over and tell her to be discreet, but tell her this guy is wanted by the FBI and authorities are on their way and ask that they try to keep him talking, in one place and don't act suspicious. She'll immediately call her friend to the bathroom and tell her. Then they'll also have to start asking who you are, how you know and you just became the most fascinating person they've met so far that night. You can be more fascinating depending on what you say next and where you lead things.

Or let her know he's the guy from the ad campaign for herpes medication or something and to use protection if her intent is to hook up with him. Advise that it would be for her to tell her friend in the interest of safety and say you only know because he gets called out a lot and always denies it. It's an example of 1,000,000 things you could do or say in the moment to be both playful and get rid of him.

Who will they want to talk to after that? Particularly when they know you're just fucking around? Who is now the funnest more interesting guy around them?

I'm so random with this shit, that my friends all cringe when i open my mouth in public places.

That describes the least interesting interaction ever AND the same exact experience they have 10 times a day and what happens over and over again, every time they go out. They knew they didn't want to talk to you the second you started talking.

Remember this. You can say anything. Anything. Get creative. Be interesting. Always be indirect. You are never trying to hit on them. You are never trying to start a conversation with them and hang out and get to know them. Act like you are trying to sell a product and the challenge is in understanding that same product is being sold to them 7 days a week. They've heard the pitch a million times. They hate it. They hate the person making it before he even starts talking. They hate this routine... because its that. Routine. Their defenses are up the moment you talk and from that moment on, they are just being polite. Be interesting, be different, be indirect and make them want to know about the product and start asking questions.

Remember, you're not trying to meet them. You're not trying to hook up with them. Never let them think this. You're goal is to make them want to know you. You're goal is to make them want to talk to you. You can start conversations a 1,000,000 different ways. (Just being random and making a random example), ask if they can see the stain on your shirt or if it came out.. when they ask what it was, say you were standing next to a guy in the bathroom and he got stabbed and you got into a struggle and ended up taking the knife away from the guy and police finally came. Thats random and i just made it up while typing this.. the point is that now they are riveted. They have tons of questions. They want to know more. You are now interesting. The door is open and they want to know you. You are not trying to convince them to open the door so you can sell yourself to them. Of course you have to tell them later that you were just joking about the knife fight or whatever. It won't matter once you've built rapport and attraction.


James Bond doesn't buy women drinks to get their attention. Thats demonstrating weakness, lower social status and value. He says something fascinating and witty, ignores their beauty or calls out a small flaw (you have lipstick on your teeth, i hope it hasn't been there all night) and moves on and they then want to talk to him. Particularly when they see him with another hotty.
i.e. "if they thought i had low confidence and self esteem, i immediately confirm it with this horrifying display".

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If you don't like that Elon Musk bought twitter,... just build your own and stop crying about it.

Jel

going with the flow/stopped caring - we probably name it different, and have slightly different perceptions of it, but I can understand that totally and agree. it's pretty much subconscious to a certain degree once you hit the first 'not caring' instance of whatever it is... it spills into everything (most things) and becomes like porn nerds stick shift analogy (which I also use a hell of a lot btw PN) but on many things rather than a specific thing

Jel

lmfao I missed this part "3. I asked about pets, I'm a huge cat fan and that gives me an opportunity to show them pictures of my cat on my phone. (hope this isn't showing weakness?)
4. I show them a picture of when I had a beard and I ask their opinion if it looked good"

100% troll, but like I say, interesting discussion anyway

WannabeMiddleMan

Dam, that's some major creativity there - I'm impressed and I actually want to hear more about the knife fight

This is definitely something that needs to be practised, but I'm up for the challenge - I just hope I can get half as creative and maybe the outcome will be a little different.

Yeah, the sweating thing is a problem - I need to work on it (hopefully its possible)

The Porn Nerd

I agree. I try to stay fit and lean and to not dress like a slob. It helps with the confidence and swagger if you are dressed well, or really if you are dressed in clothes you really like and make you feel like "you". Clothes do say a lot about someone. Jeans and t-shirts are fine if you throw in a rolex. LOL

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WannabeMiddleMan

No, seriously. If she says she likes cats and I feel the conversation needs a prop then I show pictures of my cat. I find that its something different as I don't think most guys like cats, but I do (and most females usually do), which usually helps to build up a connection.

Then I discuss how I like cats because they are very independent, they do their own thing. If a cat wants affection then it will come to you, if not then it will do its own thing, and I compare this to dogs who are always wanting affection. People say dogs have owners, but cats have slaves etc

I'm seriously trying to improve here, I guarantee you no troll attempt (this is actually the second time a serious thread of mine has been called a troll attempt) - I guess I just need to discuss pretty fucked up topics

TheSquealer

Again, you are doing the same thing. Approval seeking behavior. Attraction has nothing to do with common interests. Thats a relationship and marriage. No woman will think "I want to get with him because he likes cats"

I always go the opposite direction.

"I don't mind cats too much. To be honest, i'm a little terrified of them. When i was 5 , my father was attacked by several cats as we walked through an alley and almost died. I still vividly remember holding his hand before the ambulance came with him saying goodbye to me and telling me that he loves me. It was really hard on me. There was a lot of blood".

"really, are you serious"

"of course not! what the hell is wrong with you?! why would you even believe that? Are you always so gullible?"

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If you don't like that Elon Musk bought twitter,... just build your own and stop crying about it.

jimmycooper

If he's a troll, I wish there were trolls like him! Especially with all the new trolls polluting the board like FriendsforNow or some of the other tools.

WannabeMiddleMan

You're spot on! My approach I'm trying to agree with them, trying to show them I agree, basically the common people pleaser approach.

With your approach, you're making a joke, you're testing their humour and you're not agreeing with them.

Dam, this is tough. My approach has been straight forward, which seems boring and uninteresting.

Your approach is extremely creative, and grabs their attention.