who wrecked the democrats worse...hilary, or obama?

[Joshua G]

the case for obama: lost more legislative & congressional seats than any democrat since the 20s. corrupted the rule of law with IRS audits & spying on political opponents. issued 5 immunity deals because the emails hilarys aides handled were illegal for them to possess. Nobody was punished. Let ISIS grow. set race relations backwards 50 years. added more to the national debt than any human in history.

the case for hilary: Lost to trump.

tough call.

[kane]

I would say, Hillary. The reason is because of how the Democratic primary went down. Hillary and the DNC fucked Bernie Sanders and in doing so they alienated a lot of young voters. When you look at the demographic breakdown of the election Trump did well where you would expect him to and he did a little better than expected with Latino voters and middle class working voters. Hillary did much of what was expected, but she tanked with young voters. When Obama left office he was (and still is) very popular with Democrats, but Hillary is not. With the things that have happened in the last few weeks, it looks like Hillary is hellbent on still being involved with the party and with politics. She is toxic for the party, at least right now, whereas Obama is still seen as the leader of the party.

[deonbell]

Hillary. Using her accrued power and money, She made it so that the only person that ran against her was Bernie Sanders.

Using her media contacts she made the news guys change the poles. Democrats thought they didn't need to vote.

Democrats need a level headed person to run. Strong, but honest. No more House of Cards bullshit.

I think the most voters go for the guy they like most. Even though some showed intense hatred for Obama. That made many people like him more.

[Barry-xlovecam]

There will be a new Kingfish



They (the 1%) assassinated the last one ....

[kane]

Originally Posted by deonbell

Hillary. Using her accrued power and money, She made it so that the only person that ran against her was Bernie Sanders.

Using her media contacts she made the news guys change the poles. Democrats thought they didn't need to vote.

Democrats need a level headed person to run. Strong, but honest. No more House of Cards bullshit.

I think the most voters go for the guy they like most. Even though some showed intense hatred for Obama. That made many people like him more.

It's true that some people will vote for someone that they like or feel like they would want to hang out with. Obama was that kind of guy, Hillary seemed shrill, angry, and like she would be the last person you would want to hang out with.

[Paul Markham]

This tells you why Trump won.





Trump won because enough Americans weren't interested in voting and enough Republicans were. Leading to this.



Both parties are bought by the same fragment of society, there was hope with Obama and he failed to deliver because both houses are owned lock stock and barrel by people who don't care about the other 99%.

Despite what the official polls show, wages are declining, unemployment is rising and there's no party that has any intention of stopping either. Trump promised to stem illegal migration and stop the flow of jobs to China and bring back jobs to America. Whether he will deliver these promises or not isn't the problem. Hillary and all the rest promised to keep sending jobs abroad and not tackle migration. Because they're too busy looking after the interests of the 0.5%.

Come 2020 the sad part is the Americans who can be bothered to vote will line up and again vote for politicians who have proven themselves incapable of looking after the interest of the majority of Americans.

Vote for people not bought and paid for and take back control. And stop thinking the problem is a few people like Obama, Clinton, Bush, Trump.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Hate to break it to you -- but the popular vote was won by Hillary. WTF happened? If you are not familiar with the way voting works in the USA -- it is not necessarily about who votes or the turnout -- the count is about who votes were because the Electoral College proclaims the winner in the end.

Proportional v. Influential representation has always been the problem in the USA.

Hillary was too wishy washy with too many cliché positions where Trump was full of hate and appealing to the disillusioned. It's really that simple. Too many lower middle class Americans made a hail mary play --so far they have fucked up.

[MiamiBoyz]

Americans are stupid and have been made even stupider by design by the government to make them easier to control and clearly it has worked.

Now that they have militarized the nations police force just try to have an armed resistance...it would be futile.

The war on "terror" is a distraction to keep fear at a constant level to further prevent civil unrest.

At this point they are not even trying to hide these facts. Reality is not even important at this point.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

Hate to break it to you -- but the popular vote was won by Hillary. WTF happened? If you are not familiar with the way voting works in the USA -- it is not necessarily about who votes or the turnout -- the count is about who votes were because the Electoral College proclaims the winner in the end.

Proportional v. Influential representation has always been the problem in the USA.

Hillary was too wishy washy with too many cliché positions where Trump was full of hate and appealing to the disillusioned. It's really that simple. Too many lower middle class Americans made a hail mary play --so far they have fucked up.

They made the hail mary play because it was all they had.

As for your voting system, we all know it's fucked up. But they both played by the same fucked up rules and Trump won because so many Americans are full of hate for the status quo. If a more rational candidate had put the much the same policies forward and not alienated the ethnic minorities. They would have won by a landslide.

Most Americans want to see an end to illegal migration, an end to China overtaking the US in economic power, an end to the constant flow of jobs disappearing and being replaced by minimum wage jobs.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by MiamiBoyz

Americans are stupid and have been made even stupider by design by the government to make them easier to control and clearly it has worked.

It goes further than that. The problem isn't the Presidents. It runs right through to local officials. This is for one seat.



Even local elections are now bought and paid for.

Take a look at today's election in San Diego: Two candidates sparring for mayor's office have spent $10 million between them, making it the city's priciest mayoral election, ever. That's nothing, though, compared to the more than $100 million recently doled out by the mayor of a certain East Coast 'burg that rhymes with "Moo Mork Mitty."

King of the municipal rainmakers is businessman Michael Bloomberg, the fiercest supporter of Mayor Michael Bloomberg. The 11th wealthiest man in America keeps his coffers brimming with copious ladles of cash from his media fortune. (When he's not splashing money on Florida elections, that is.) In 2009, he spent $109 million of his own money to secure a third term ? which to folks who like to break things down, amounted at one point to $1 million a day.

And if you believe he's spending that money to do nothing but get it back, you're too dumb to vote.

[NewNick]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Most Americans want to see an end to illegal migration, an end to China overtaking the US in economic power, an end to the constant flow of jobs disappearing and being replaced by minimum wage jobs.

They would also like to see Creationism taught in schools and free ammo for anyone with an assault rifle.

Unfortunately they are more likely to get the ammo than see China put in its place with an economic imbecile in the White House.

History will not be kind to Trump. If the US can get rid of him before he does something really stoopid then he will just be a fart in the annals, an amusing page in the history text book.

However it needs to be done quickly before the Orange Baboon fucks up bigly.

[Vendzilla]

Obama did most of the heavy lifting with the lying about Obamacare and the workforce participation rate, while Hillary put the nail in the coffin with the constant revelations about her email server and comments like "Basket of Deplorables"

Of course Hillary is blaming Russia for her lost, that and Comey. Kinda like Obama blamed Bush for all his failings.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Hate of the status quo maybe ... see what they got:

President Donald J. Trump’s White House granted 14 waivers of its ethics rules, including to top advisers on politics and energy issues, allowing them to weigh in on matters that could affect their own financial interests and those of their former employers and clients, according to documents the administration released today.

The waivers, issued by the White House Counsel’s office, allow administration appointees to take part in decisions from which federal ethics rules and Trump’s own policies would require them to recuse.

The documents show that hiring former lobbyists and political operatives with long client lists has sometimes required Trump’s White House to choose between its ethics pledge -- which would prevent workers from dealing with matters involving former clients -- and the use of its employees. The administration released the waivers in response to a request from the government’s federal ethics agency.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...h-past-clients

Drain the swamp and bring the new snakes in.

Meantime, in the UK;

The Conservative Party could be in line to lose 20 seats and Labour gain nearly 30 in next week’s general election, according to new modelling by one of the country’s leading pollsters.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...eats-02zfwl8lc

Brexit and the Trump effect are in play here.

Doing things like hail mary passes in desperation overwhelmingly do not work -- they are recipes in the face of defeat.

[Sid70]

America was fucked on 9/11. End of story. No turn back.

[Joshua G]

& the dumb libs talk about trump instead of the thread topic.

that's why i call them...dumb libs.

[Axeman]

Originally Posted by kane

I would say, Hillary. The reason is because of how the Democratic primary went down. Hillary and the DNC fucked Bernie Sanders and in doing so they alienated a lot of young voters. When you look at the demographic breakdown of the election Trump did well where you would expect him to and he did a little better than expected with Latino voters and middle class working voters. Hillary did much of what was expected, but she tanked with young voters. When Obama left office he was (and still is) very popular with Democrats, but Hillary is not. With the things that have happened in the last few weeks, it looks like Hillary is hellbent on still being involved with the party and with politics. She is toxic for the party, at least right now, whereas Obama is still seen as the leader of the party.

I think Obama might have. Reason being he allowed the Democrats to get complacent and think they could totally get away from having an actual message and plan to present to the voters. Obama was such a rare, skilled Politician, but he is the exception. Now I am not sure I blame Obama for that himself. If you can get by on your skills vs the message and platform, so be it.

Hillary obviously didn't help things and had no platform at all. And her recent its everyone but me to blame is quite troubling.

The democrats are now entering the one year mark until 2018 elections are in full swing, and they better pivot hard and come up with a party platform that will speak to the voters. Russia and we hate Trump, will get you back your current seats, and a handful of others maybe, but it will not get you back the House. They get a solid blue collar message that is unified by next spring? Then they could quite easily roll in 2018.

Ditch the identity politics. Dial the environment rhetoric down by half. Talk about real jobs. About real school reform. About real solutions to inner city issues. About real solutions on how to start to get people off the public dole and into the workforce again. Get back to what the Democratic party was.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Axeman

I think Obama might have. Reason being he allowed the Democrats to get complacent and think they could totally get away from having an actual message and plan to present to the voters. Obama was such a rare, skilled Politician, but he is the exception. Now I am not sure I blame Obama for that himself. If you can get by on your skills vs the message and platform, so be it.

Hillary obviously didn't help things and had no platform at all. And her recent its everyone but me to blame is quite troubling.

The democrats are now entering the one year mark until 2018 elections are in full swing, and they better pivot hard and come up with a party platform that will speak to the voters. Russia and we hate Trump, will get you back your current seats, and a handful of others maybe, but it will not get you back the House. They get a solid blue collar message that is unified by next spring? Then they could quite easily roll in 2018.

Ditch the identity politics. Dial the environment rhetoric down by half. Talk about real jobs. About real school reform. About real solutions to inner city issues. About real solutions on how to start to get people off the public dole and into the workforce again. Get back to what the Democratic party was.

I agree 100%. I have said a few times I thought Hillary's main problem during the election was while Trump was talking about jobs and helping make middle-class blue collar worker's lives better, Hillary was talking about Black Lives Matters and who pees in what bathroom. She and many of the Democrats just seemed out of touch with the average middle-class family which has been their bread and butter for a long time. Add in the fact that young voters who tend to skew Democrat were angry wth her and the party (not angry enough to vote Trump, but angry enough to either vote 3rd party or not vote at all) and it made for a perfect storm of ugliness for her.

My prediction is that the Republicans will hold on to the Senate in 2018 as the map makes it nearly impossible for the Dems to take it back. In the House I think the Dems will gain seats, but I'm not sure if they can retake it. If, as you say, they can come up with a unified message focusing on jobs, healthcare, and things that are important to middle-class voters they could take back the House.

[Steve Rupe]

Historically the Democrats are in control and then Republicans are in control etc. Nothing has happened to change this, at least at this point in time.

[jsmih]

I would say Hillary. Even though she knew she was going to run, she made some terrible decisions like the Wall Street paid speeches. Then she took a slam dunk win election and ran a horrible campaign (read "Shattered" for some interesting insight into the campaign errors she made).

[MPGdevil]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

They made the hail mary play because it was all they had.

As for your voting system, we all know it's fucked up. But they both played by the same fucked up rules and Trump won because so many Americans are full of hate for the status quo. If a more rational candidate had put the much the same policies forward and not alienated the ethnic minorities. They would have won by a landslide.

Most Americans want to see an end to illegal migration, an end to China overtaking the US in economic power, an end to the constant flow of jobs disappearing and being replaced by minimum wage jobs.

China will be overtaking the US in economic power even faster with Trump as president. The wind and solar power industry is going to boom in China the next many years. They will have all the smart people, innovating. All while Trump in his dreams of good old days are trying to save a few thousand miners.

And who are willing to pay the higher prices just for a "Made in the US" label.

[MrMaxwell]

Originally Posted by MiamiBoyz

Americans are stupid and have been made even stupider by design by the government to make them easier to control and clearly it has worked.

Now that they have militarized the nations police force just try to have an armed resistance...it would be futile.

The war on "terror" is a distraction to keep fear at a constant level to further prevent civil unrest.

At this point they are not even trying to hide these facts. Reality is not even important at this point.

Here's some news for you on THAT
Last I heard I think there were nearly 200,000,000 firearms in the states in the hands of citizens
What I saw in LA during katrina took a lot of hope away for us to ever resist, but, if we ever have the sense - at least FOR NOW - we do still outnumber them extreme and we do still have a lot of fire power collectively

I know that we're mostly idiots of mass and massive masses now though too
I can't argue on that by now

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by NewNick

Unfortunately they are more likely to get the ammo than see China put in its place with an economic imbecile in the White House.

With the others in power, China has risen to be a real threat to the West. so why blame it on Trump?

You missed my point that he promised, the others are in favour of Globalisation.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

Brexit and the Trump effect are in play here.

Doing things like hail mary passes in desperation overwhelmingly do not work -- they are recipes in the face of defeat.

If the UK votes Labour, the mess will be awful. They have to have the cooperation of the SNP to rule. With that alliance, it's guaranteed the UK will spend way beyond its present rate and way beyond any tax increased revenues.

Even a Labour/Lib Dem alliance the results will be catastrophic. Also, the UK will end up tied to the EU.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by kane

I agree 100%. I have said a few times I thought Hillary's main problem during the election was while Trump was talking about jobs and helping make middle-class blue collar worker's lives better, Hillary was talking about Black Lives Matters and who pees in what bathroom. She and many of the Democrats just seemed out of touch with the average middle-class family which has been their bread and butter for a long time. Add in the fact that young voters who tend to skew Democrat were angry wth her and the party (not angry enough to vote Trump, but angry enough to either vote 3rd party or not vote at all) and it made for a perfect storm of ugliness for her.

My prediction is that the Republicans will hold on to the Senate in 2018 as the map makes it nearly impossible for the Dems to take it back. In the House I think the Dems will gain seats, but I'm not sure if they can retake it. If, as you say, they can come up with a unified message focusing on jobs, healthcare, and things that are important to middle-class voters they could take back the House.

Not just the middle class, the working class in many areas have seen the devastation that has happened over the last 16 years. The Democrat message doesn't have much impact when you don't have a job and lining up for food stamps. Bringing back jobs was a great message. Doesn't matter if he would or would not. The Democrats most certainly will not and will carry on shedding more American working class and lower middle class jobs.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by MPGdevil

And who are willing to pay the higher prices just for a "Made in the US" label.

I understand the greed factor of those with a job. It goes once that job is lost.

[hottoddy]

Without 8 years of Obama, Trump would have never been elected. The liberals had their wet dream candidate and now must pay the price.

[escorpio]

Originally Posted by hottoddy

Without 8 years of Obama, Trump would have never been elected. The liberals had their wet dream candidate and now must pay the price.

[kane]

Originally Posted by hottoddy

Without 8 years of Obama, Trump would have never been elected. The liberals had their wet dream candidate and now must pay the price.

And without 8 years of Bush we likely wouldn't have had Obama and without 8 years of Clinton we likely wouldn't have had Bush and if the person that follows Trump is a Democrat, Trump will play a major role in them getting elected.

It seems like both parties suffer from the same problem. They get power then they get drunk on it and screw it up which then fires up the opposition and gets them out to vote. This is why it is almost always the case that the party that wins the White House loses seats in Congress during the next midterm election.

[Jel]

hilary without a doubt. Another obama, and trump would never have won. Not to mention the shitty choices for actually running from both sides.

[Barry-xlovecam]

That's OK, just figure out how to make money under the new regime -- it's always that way -- bottom line.

[TampaToker]

Originally Posted by kane

I agree 100%. I have said a few times I thought Hillary's main problem during the election was while Trump was talking about jobs and helping make middle-class blue collar worker's lives better, Hillary was talking about Black Lives Matters and who pees in what bathroom. She and many of the Democrats just seemed out of touch with the average middle-class family which has been their bread and butter for a long time. Add in the fact that young voters who tend to skew Democrat were angry wth her and the party (not angry enough to vote Trump, but angry enough to either vote 3rd party or not vote at all) and it made for a perfect storm of ugliness for her.

My prediction is that the Republicans will hold on to the Senate in 2018 as the map makes it nearly impossible for the Dems to take it back. In the House I think the Dems will gain seats, but I'm not sure if they can retake it. If, as you say, they can come up with a unified message focusing on jobs, healthcare, and things that are important to middle-class voters they could take back the House.