Socks

I don't even know where to begin... Are any of you actually doing this?

Barry-xlovecam

Dear Ottawa,

Your provincial GST tax collections are in the mail.

Best wishes from Brussels and the entire EU Business Community.

Seriously, this is extra-territorial taxation -- consult a Canadian Tax (international) Attorney for an opinion and strategy.

loreen

I see more and more Europeans doing it

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Barry-xlovecam

Inside the EU yes for b2c digital sales.
That is EU juristiction and territory -- they can tax to oblivion their citizens if they want.
It's the extraterritorial aspect -- it's naked trade protectionism.
What if: the US government makes EU businesses the tax collector at the source for a new digital sales tax at the rate of 25% to only EU businesses?
WTO here we come.
Retaliatory action or mutual taxation treaties will be the end result -- the taxman has not considered the potential blowback IMHO.

aka123

To only EU businesses? Is that supposed to be equivalent to EU's practice (it isn't)?

This new tax thing is mutual taxation signed with treaty (and reinforced also by USA and other parties), no retaliation expected. Come on.. seriously..

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_Richard_

i can't sign contacts with EU companies without a VAT number. you're advocating acquiring a lawyer to fight EU tax law or just work with the system they have in place?

Barry-xlovecam

What mythical treaty with the us and the eu? Link? and give me the page numbers you are referring to with regard to any VAT or US State Sales Tax

The actual document not some twisted web commentary.

_Richard_

a mythical treaty is required to respect a countries laws?

Barry-xlovecam

1. you are a Canadian citizen
2. Are you selling to them or buying?
3. If you are selling to them that is another story -- you are selling B2B and the transaction is not subject to VAT tax -- they would need that number for a VAT return on that exempted transaction. B2B and C2C transactions are exempt from EU VAT -- reimbursed or not collected at the source.

If you are a Canadian consumer buying as an end user from a EU business you are not charged VAT nor your Provincial GST. Do you declare the GST and pay it to your Province? When you buy something from the US are you charged GST?

Barry-xlovecam

Do you as a Canadian charge your US customers their State's Sales Tax (applies to consumer hard goods primarily)?

US sellers do no charge Canadian Customers their Provincial GST.
Are Labor Sales subject to GST in your province?

The is no''world government'' taxation is territorial. Disclosure (Bank Secrecy Laws) are sometimes altered by reciprocal treaty. FATCA by US dictate to world banks for foreign banks to access the US banking system.

_Richard_

this is the premise i am approaching for it, and as you have stated i need a VAT number in order to sign the contract

aka123

What do you mean about mythical? There are shitloads of treaties between EU- and between EU countries and US.

You really want me to post links/ references to all treaties about trade between US, EU and individual EU countries?


Here, have Finnish law regarding very closely about this subject. Google translated.

"Payable by either High Contracting Party shall not be citizens of another Contracting Party to the territory of other or higher internal charges or taxes, than what is required for their own country's citizens and what they perform." (and so is the case in here, the tax is the same; for the companies to collect)

"Each High Contracting Party to the citizens must be free to turn, follow the local laws, the courts of another Contracting Party to contact a number of instances where the law and assume that respond to their rights" (thus Finnish VAT rules can be enforced in US)

Suomen ja Amerikan Yhdysvaltain välinen ystävyys-, kauppa- ja konsulisopimus - FINLEX ®

It is from the year 1934, so not very new thing, but now you know too. Better late than never.

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Barry-xlovecam

I said that in plain English -- what one country says on some website means nothing to me.I am a US citizen tell me what MY government agreed to if you want my money ... The EU tax 'police' are not coming here this week.

Signed treaty document on VAT payment SPECIFICALLY or STFU
Not some half-assed interpretation that would be thrown out of court.
Back up your statement if you can

Truth is, unless you business has some physical presence in the EU this law means nothing to small businesses (under $100 Million/yr) in the USA

As a corporation domiciled in the EU -- what it means to me is that I must raise my prices 17%-28% to my customers or pay the VAT bill out of my profits -- the amount involved is millions of euros a year -- more than you will earn in several(many) lifetimes. I have also seen the value of the Euro decline 17% to 28% -- interesting-- now why did that work out that way?

aka123

I already told. You are US citizen, but the discussion is about doing business into EU area and EU countries. Do all the shit you want in US, but the moment you do something physically or virtually in another country, it is not anymore just about US.


That is the actual treaty from Finnish justice department's site. Do you want the original paper too or what?

"In witness whereof, the plenipotentiaries of the interested parties have signed this agreement and sealed equipped.

Was made in Washington, DC, this thirteenth day of February, one thousand nine hundred and thirty-four in duplicate in the English and Finnish, both texts being authentic."

Suomen ja Amerikan Yhdysvaltain välinen ystävyys-, kauppa- ja konsulisopimus - FINLEX ®

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aka123

Do what you want, I am not here or in anywhere to enforce this. I just told how it goes (legally). No need to tell your life story or whatever that is.

About the euro's decline, it is because of ECB's quantitative easing. Similar to what FED has done.

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Barry-xlovecam

Baffle me with Bullshit --

This in the context of US embassy purchases

There is no treaty and stop posting bizarre conjecture.
con·jec·ture
kənˈjekCHər
noun
1.
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
"conjectures about the newcomer were many and varied"
synonyms: speculation, guesswork, surmise, fancy, presumption, assumption, theory, postulation, supposition; More

see the above I added maybe after your reply.

Show me on an official US GOVERNMENT website anything saying American businesses must collect EU tax -- you cant.

I am sure that US mutlinationals that maintain a domiciled presence (an EU nation's corporate charter) in the EU comply with the EU Directives ( including the VAT Directives).

The OP is a Canadian? business. So what the Canadian laws/treaties my be I don't know. For fact, we do not charge our Canadian customers (b2c ) their respective Provincial GST and we are a Netherlands chartered corporation.

_Richard_

that being said, what legal ramifications do you think could occur from not collecting and submitting the VAT? is it possible for the EU country in question to sue in our courts? or would it be something as simple as blocking the site in question for the country?

i was mystified and a little concerned when i was told i needed a VAT to simply do contracting work

aka123

"OFM responsibilities include the Diplomatic Tax Exemption Program"

"Why would a foreign country refuse to give an American Embassy a benefit that the Vienna Convention treaties require?"

US Department of State, Office of Foreign Missions, Tax Program


I don't think that diplomats tax exemption issue quite falls under this discussion. Also, why you insist on having US gov. website listing that discussed information and exactly like that? Like it would make that much difference. But, like I said, do what you want, I don't care.

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aka123

Yes, you can be sued in your court by foreign country or company or by similar entity. Supposing that there is a treaty about it (like US has with Finland). I suppose that there is such treaty between individual EU countries and also between EU and USA (and Canada) level.

EU and individual countries are just starting to enforce this VAT thing, so possible actions are still uncertain. But can include being sued in court, blocking site, etc.


Example about treaty with Canada:

"Government of the Republic of Finland and the Government of Canada,

Desiring to make in order to prevent double taxation in force of the agreement and the prevention of fiscal evasion, have agreed as follows"

https://www.finlex.fi/fi/sopimukset/...003/19600003_2

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_Richard_

and considering the US/CA is a huge market for online sales, we're looking at 'tit for tat' legislation that should be coming very very quickly

Barry-xlovecam

And that is EXACTLY what I meant.

I say 'retaliatory' you say tit-for-tat' = same thing.

If there comes a day that this is the case, then we businesses will have imposed upon us the burden of being the 'tax collector' for the 196 countries in the world today and their respective tax jurisdictions; 48 US states with tax jurisdictions, the ten provinces and 3 territories in Canada, and numerous other tax subdivisions. Who will pay for this accounting nightmare --who do you think? The cost will be passed along to all consumers.

Is that what you really want!

I declared a few thousands in TAXABLE business use and personal use (our sales tax laws differ here) online purchases on my state tax return -- the tax is 6%, no big deal. When governments set tax rates too high they are subject of evasion. A VAT rate of 17%-28% is greedy so many might evade its payment- that is understood.

aka123

So, what this retaliation could be? EU countries collect VAT for all internet sales (B2C), USA doesn't (outside states). There are already treaties forbidding collecting more such taxes than what is collected for own citizens and entities. Unless USA starts to collect VAT for all of its online sales, it is hard to see how this could change for others either.

This is globalization, and there is going to be more of it.

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_Richard_

sorry, i am not arguing in support of any of this.. i was merely pointing out that the statement of 'i should get a lawyer' is a little ridiculous. If i 'get a lawyer' to avoid acquiring a VAT number, i don't get the contract, lawyer or not.

regarding the taxes for our side, there is not-entirely-clear requirements that would have my charging GST for services rendered (depending on the services/amount earned).. seems like this is the 'canadian' equivalent of acquiring a VAT number? but the canadian equivalent lacks the ability for a refund

Barry-xlovecam

It would be easy -- slap a tariff on all sales from EU countries delivered digitally online equal to the VAT.
The USA could adopt protectionist measures easily -- keep EU businesses from selling in their digital markets tax-free. That is exactly what is happening That is called dumping -- selling a product or service for substantially less that you countries market price. USA and Canada are target markets for EU digital business.

Oh Oh SpaghettiO's ...
VAT is inclusive in the price in the EU?

A= 125? or;

A=100?
+ 25? VAT
========
125?

125? is the selling price -- fucked yourselves again ...

This whole idea of cross border tax collection is a sham for protectionism. The EU wants to squeeze every ? it can from its citizens.

France is the worst high tax rates and tax evasion is the national sport.

aka123

No, it can't easily slap tariff, at least with current treaties, and I don't think EU countries will apply for new ones nilly willy.

What do you cry about "tax free"? So does sell US companies those same services tax free (VAT free), withing US I mean. What is the fucking difference, where does the dumping happen? Everybody sells tax free. That is equal playground, not the opposite.

Or if the selling happens in EU, everybody collects the tax, again equal playground. Before it favored US companies not collecting VAT (and still does those who don't abide).

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Barry-xlovecam

No, Richard, as a seller b2b to the EU you would need a EU VAT number so that the buyer could get his VAT exemption on goods bought for resale or business use -- you are right -- make the buyer happy and get the sale.

In the States, the State Sales Tax is on physical goods (usually--with some exceptions)
For instance; Software is a taxable item in my state (even if used for business). When I bought templates from Envato I was not charged sales tax but I declared the purchase and paid the sales tax 6%. In a US State you need a Sales Tax ID number and use that for an "industrial processing" exemption for materials fabricate or that you buy for resale as taxable items. To make matters more complex: I was a contractor for years and I paid sales tax at the source with the price to the customer -- regardless of his resale status (e.g.; a new home builder) -- was a price with sales tax included.

Point being: Sales tax, VAT tax, GST tax should be a local matter for reason of its complexity in each local jurisdiction.

aka123

Inclusive? What do you mean?

If the price without VAT is for example 100 euros, you multiply that with VAT amount: like 100*1,25=125. If you are trying to calculate the VAT without that VAT free base price, then the calculation is a tad different: VAT=125-(125/1,25). VAT free price=125-VAT.

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Barry-xlovecam

There is no sales tax charged by the seller in State A to the buyer(B2C C2C) in State B

inclusive

We add the sales tax to the price = it is a disclosed tax
$1.00 price
$0.06 MI Sales Tax
====
$1.06 total

EU
1,25€ total
INCLUSIVE
containing (a specified element) as part of a whole.
"all prices are inclusive of taxes"
synonyms: all-inclusive, with everything included, comprehensive, in toto; More

Fine, that is EU territory and EU law applies.

If you don't think it fair to buy from the USA or Canada without your Finland VAT tax included -- buy at home! Or, declare and remit (pay) your taxes to your home tax authority -- in Finland

aka123

Yes, you don't generally collect VAT in US for online sales, so how it does hurt that EU companies don't collect VAT in US for online sales? What is the unfair part?

I don't understand your inclusive/ disclosed stuff. The end price has anyways that tax, what is the fucking difference? And as I told, we add the VAT to VAT:less price. That is how it works. And the prices show VAT because it is easier for customers to understand the total price. In case if you miss the "bullshitting" customers part, making prices to look cheaper than those really are.

About the rest; it is actually more fair that US companies pay the VAT too, but this whole discussion is from the opposite direction; "Why I must pay EU VAT, why, whyyyy???!!!"

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Barry-xlovecam

Because EU citizens will not pay their taxes voluntarily LMAO

Truthfully, I resent ANY tax collection by businesses are forced upon them by governments -- here or abroad.

Your taxes are your problem -- deal with it.
Maybe you could start executing your tax evaders LMAO. Didn't England try something like that once.



Robin Hood and the Sheriff of Notingham as I recall