Great News!!! Waterboarding Terrorists Works!!

[Pleasurepays]

"But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews


--------------------

How a Detainee Became An Asset
Sept. 11 Plotter Cooperated After Waterboarding

By Peter Finn, Joby Warrick and Julie Tate
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, August 29, 2009

After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials."

In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture.

Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times."

sorry pussies. the truth is a pesky thing.

[»Rob Content«]

Countdown to someone saying that they have never once ever gotten one piece of useful information using any of this.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

"But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews


--------------------

How a Detainee Became An Asset
Sept. 11 Plotter Cooperated After Waterboarding

By Peter Finn, Joby Warrick and Julie Tate
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, August 29, 2009

After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials."

In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture.

Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times."

sorry pussies. the truth is a pesky thing.

Can't be true. It would not be PC to allow such things. Obviously he was a TERRIFIC actor and was able to lie and talk at length for days and days making things up, and keeping track of all he said and making sure everything corresponded from beginning to end. Obviously... lol

[SBJ]

when I was younger i use to Wakeboard.. but I take it that is different than Waterboarding

[GrouchyAdmin]

Now if we just did that with the Illegals who pretend to not understand English. ;)

[»Rob Content«]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Can't be true. It would not be PC to allow such things. Obviously he was a TERRIFIC actor and was able to lie and talk at length for days and days making things up, and keeping track of all he said and making sure everything corresponded from beginning to end. Obviously... lol

You have it all wrong man.

This is obviously part of the terrorist training, to spend months and months going over time and again your perfect story if you are ever caught.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by SBJ

when I was younger i use to Wakeboard.. but I take it that is different than Waterboarding

ha... depends on how good you are and who's driving the boat. it might be the same or worse ;)

[xxxdesign-net]

9/11 mastermind now CIA asset... find the error lol

Good grief, haven't you overdosed on the coolaid yet?

Now he's having a blast being the professor? Ok man, whatever they say... CIA says torture works, it must works!

[chodadog]

It kind of invites the same treatment for captive US soldiers in future wars. What's going to prevent enemies in future wars from torturing US soldiers for vital information that could save the lives of their soldiers or civilians? If the ends justify the means for america, then they will justify the means for every other nation in the world.

Also interesting is that 6 years after this guy's eye-opening confession about the group's plans, ideology and operatives, the US appears to be no closer to catching Bin Laden or bringing down Al-Qaeda.

[Sly]

Originally Posted by chodadog

It kind of invites the same treatment for captive US soldiers in future wars. What's going to prevent enemies in future wars from torturing US soldiers for vital information that could save the lives of their soldiers or civilians? If the ends justify the means for america, then they will justify the means for every other nation in the world.

Other "nations" (Al Qaeda, the Taliban, etc.) already do torture captive US soldiers. They even torture captive US reporters.

Not that it's a reason to do anything... just saying...

[chodadog]

Originally Posted by Sly

Other "nations" (Al Qaeda, the Taliban, etc.) already do torture captive US soldiers. They even torture captive US reporters.

Not that it's a reason to do anything... just saying...

I'm talking about wars with nations like Germany, Russia, France, China - whoever. There will be more wars and who fights in them is anybody's guess. You don't want a history of torturing enemy combatants. Because other nations won't think twice about torturing your soldiers knowing full well your nation's willingness to torture others - including theirs.

[xxxdesign-net]

Originally Posted by chodadog

the US appears to be no closer to catching Bin Laden or bringing down Al-Qaeda.

There's a BBC documenatry called The Power of Nightmares that explains why the Neocons have/had no intention to do so... With Obama's administration filled with hawks/NeoLibs, it shouldn't change much...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

[kane]

If this is all true, clearly this was effective. The question is: How much false information did he give before finally telling the truth and do we really know he was telling the truth when we believe he was?

Also, don't you think this story is now a poster for terrorist recruiters? "Look at what the terrible Americans do to our brothers, you must unite and bring them down."

I'm not saying interrogation isn't good. Hell, I'm not even so sure that torture doesn't ultimately work. The question is what does it cost us?

[iseeyou]

The biggest problem with torture is not whether or not torture is effective. Prisons sometimes rehabilitate people and sometimes not but the main point of a prison is not rehabilitation.

The problem with legalized torture is that almost anybody can be legally tortured. In general, the victims of torture are not tried in a court of law before being tortured. Soldiers and police and administrators/bureaucrats/lawyers decide who is worthy of torture with very little legal oversight.

There should at least be a requirement ... such as needing a torture warrant from an impartial judge. It should be required that torturers present specific evidence as to why they believe the suspect ought to be tortuted and how torture will be conducted.

Personally, I am against torture. It is unpredictable what will be the results. The results can vary from obtaining critical information to accidentally killing an innocent person. And many people have died because of "torture".

In the case of serial killer Anatoly Onoprienko, the police arrested an innocent person and tortured him to death. 17 days later, they found the real murderer.

Who is worse? the serial killer? or the police who murdered an innocent person?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Onoprienko

"In March 1996, the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) and Public Prosecutor's Office specialists detained 26-year-old Yury Mozola as a suspect of several brutal murders. Over the course of three days, six SBU members and one representative of Public Prosecutor's Office tortured (burning, electric shocking and beating) the arrested citizen.[3] Mozola refused to confess to the crimes and died during the torture. Seven responsible for the death were sentenced to prison terms.[4] Seventeen days later, the real murderer, Anatoly Onoprienko, was found after a massive manhunt, seven years after his first murder."

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by kane

If this is all true, clearly this was effective. The question is: How much false information did he give before finally telling the truth and do we really know he was telling the truth when we believe he was?

What difference does it make? How much false information does ANYONE get interrogating ANYONE about a crime get? Every time the police ask a question they get lied to. That's part of the deal.

What planet do you live on where people say "yes officer, i was doing 108 miles per hour AND i'm drunk... you need to arrest me, impound my car, charge me with at least wreckless driving and dui"... or "yeah, of course that's my crack pipe, who's else would it be"

It's not like the CIA or any other government intelligence agency of any nation are a bunch of naive, inexperienced jokers expecting full, complete and 100% honest confessions right from the start. the whole point is to start breaking people down until they DO tell the truth

Also, don't you think this story is now a poster for terrorist recruiters? "Look at what the terrible Americans do to our brothers, you must unite and bring them down."

Don't you think that sending the message to every terrorist in the world that says "hey, don't worry if you get caught,... they'll be required by their own laws and rules to treat you like royalty... so just kick back, relax and keep your mouth shut and don't worry about anything" is now a poster for terrorist recruiters?

How about trying to honestly answer this question: "What do you think terrorist groups are thinking right now while watching this impossibly retarded debate about how well they should be treated should they be captured and publicly detailing the limits of how much they can be pressured into giving up information"

I'm not saying interrogation isn't good. Hell, I'm not even so sure that torture doesn't ultimately work. The question is what does it cost us?

Of course torture works. people in this nation are extremely naive.

Take Russia for example. If you live in Russia, you might notice something super interesting about watching crime shows like the Russian equivalent of "COPS" on tv. that is that EVERY single person who committed a serious crime like murdering people or several ends up giving a full, complete confession on camera, walking everyone through the crime scene, taking them to where the body(s) are on camera and so on. Then you start seeing the common pattern of them having busted up faces, limping etc. I know tons of cops in Russia. They get confessions almost every time for major crimes before they got to trial. Do you think that's done by simply asking?

I'm not saying its right or wrong... i'm saying its 100% fact that they fuck people up until they talk and give up the full details of what happened. Saying that can't work or doesn't is totally absurd when its done all over the world, every single day. Police, mafia ... intelligence agencies, secret police.. whoever. It's not like the CIA was the first one to think up the idea of putting someone in a room and fucking them up until they talk... or telling them that their wife is going to get killed or whatever. It's not an original concept that was invented on the battle field yesterday or in someones secret police dungeon yesterday.

The question shouldn't be "Does torture work" - that's fucking retarded. If you know something and i want to get it from you... its easy. I can fuck you up for days, not let you sleep, beat the shit out of you, bust you into pieces until you break down and talk.

The only questions should be "when is it justifiable to apply certain techniques to certain individuals"... but to sit here and suggest that if you know something and i want that information, that there is no way i can get you to give me that information is extremely dishonest.

[Pleasurepays]

That's funny... i didn't read the post above me Kane... and he backed up what i said... its totally normal for police in Russia to fuck someone up until they talk. and THEY DO talk. That's why they do it. Obviously, its not unique to that country either.

Saying that they don't talk or eventually confess is ridiculous. All you have to do is watch TV and watch hoards of hardcore murderers giving full tours of the crime scene, giving up all the murder weapons and taking the camera crews to where they bodies are BEFORE THE TRIAL to understand that they can easily get people to information and cooperation from people.

[Pleasurepays]

again... i'm not saying "its right"... i'm saying the "torture doesn't work" stance is patently absurd and dishonest in every possible way.

put me in a room with anyone on this board and tell me what info you want from them... i'll get it. not a problem. it's just a simple question of breaking someone down physically and emotionally. its not a tough thing to do. everyone has a breaking point.

[papill0n]

Originally Posted by SBJ

when I was younger i use to Wakeboard.. but I take it that is different than Waterboarding

both will give you big air

[seeandsee]

Originally Posted by »Rob Content«

Countdown to someone saying that they have never once ever gotten one piece of useful information using any of this.

[qxm]

Waterboarding is for amateurs.......... try THIS:

http://www.theonion.com/content/vide...urce=a-section

[Libertine]

So, basically, Pleasurepays wants to turn the US into Iran to protect it from terrorists.

Good to know

[Machete_]

I am only gonna make one comment on this, because debating this with you is absolutely pointless

A quote from your own link says it all:

John L. Helgerson, the former CIA inspector general who investigated the agency's detention and interrogation program, said his work did not put him in "a position to reach definitive conclusions about the effectiveness of particular interrogation methods."

Certain of the techniques seemed to have little effect, whereas waterboarding and sleep deprivation were the two most powerful techniques and elicited a lot of information," he said in an interview

But the INFORMATION they get under torture is worthless and false. The only valuabel infromation was gained AFTER the torture. And they gained the same info from people they dident torture.

As he said himself: the information i gave under torture, was false and only to stop the torture

The Founding Fathers of the United States designed a great new world, but you managed to fuck it up with 60 years of politics - congrats to the winners

I'm glad i live in a civilized country where we crack terrorcells with Intelligence, rather than torture.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by KrisH

The only valuable information was gained AFTER the torture.

yes.

exactly.

thank you.

they broke a person and the person started talking. all according to plan.

good catch. welcome to the winning team!!

[AtlantisCash]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

What difference does it make? How much false information does ANYONE get interrogating ANYONE about a crime get? Every time the police ask a question they get lied to. That's part of the deal.

What planet do you live on where people say "yes officer, i was doing 108 miles per hour AND i'm drunk... you need to arrest me, impound my car, charge me with at least wreckless driving and dui"... or "yeah, of course that's my crack pipe, who's else would it be"

It's not like the CIA or any other government intelligence agency of any nation are a bunch of naive, inexperienced jokers expecting full, complete and 100% honest confessions right from the start. the whole point is to start breaking people down until they DO tell the truth



Don't you think that sending the message to every terrorist in the world that says "hey, don't worry if you get caught,... they'll be required by their own laws and rules to treat you like royalty... so just kick back, relax and keep your mouth shut and don't worry about anything" is now a poster for terrorist recruiters?

How about trying to honestly answer this question: "What do you think terrorist groups are thinking right now while watching this impossibly retarded debate about how well they should be treated should they be captured and publicly detailing the limits of how much they can be pressured into giving up information"



Of course torture works. people in this nation are extremely naive.

Take Russia for example. If you live in Russia, you might notice something super interesting about watching crime shows like the Russian equivalent of "COPS" on tv. that is that EVERY single person who committed a serious crime like murdering people or several ends up giving a full, complete confession on camera, walking everyone through the crime scene, taking them to where the body(s) are on camera and so on. Then you start seeing the common pattern of them having busted up faces, limping etc. I know tons of cops in Russia. They get confessions almost every time for major crimes before they got to trial. Do you think that's done by simply asking?

I'm not saying its right or wrong... i'm saying its 100% fact that they fuck people up until they talk and give up the full details of what happened. Saying that can't work or doesn't is totally absurd when its done all over the world, every single day. Police, mafia ... intelligence agencies, secret police.. whoever. It's not like the CIA was the first one to think up the idea of putting someone in a room and fucking them up until they talk... or telling them that their wife is going to get killed or whatever. It's not an original concept that was invented on the battle field yesterday or in someones secret police dungeon yesterday.

The question shouldn't be "Does torture work" - that's fucking retarded. If you know something and i want to get it from you... its easy. I can fuck you up for days, not let you sleep, beat the shit out of you, bust you into pieces until you break down and talk.

The only questions should be "when is it justifiable to apply certain techniques to certain individuals"... but to sit here and suggest that if you know something and i want that information, that there is no way i can get you to give me that information is extremely dishonest.

it has been asked already and i m also re asking again, what if that whole process applied someone is really innocent?

for example: in Iraq war American Soldiers were so called "Freedom Heros", but who defended their own country was called terrorist or something else and who knows what they really lived when they got captured.

if You're going to fight with someone what ever the reason is You should have some ethics while You're doing it, isn't it?

just saying CİA didn't invent torture does not mean it also could be done by CİA:

don't take it personal, but "saying threatening someone with His/Her Families life is ok" simply sick and there is no point to defend it.

if You can prove his crime, then hang the bastard i could really care less, but like they said Law must be punish criminal himself, neither his family nor others.

Just my

[Iron Fist]

I want to believe!

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by AtlantisCash

it has been asked already and i m also re asking again, what if that whole process applied someone is really innocent?

that's a completely different question than the absurd claim that "torture doesn't work".

that is the debate and what these people keep saying. of course there are plenty of legal, ethical and moral questions. but that has nothing to do with the blanket assertion that capturing someone, throwing them in a tiny room, making them stand in uncomfortable positions, not allowing them to sleep for days, fucking with them mentally, beating the shit out of them, water boarding them etc won't ultimately get them to talk... just as it did with the high level al queda operative in question.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by AtlantisCash

if You can prove his crime, then hang the bastard i could really care less, but like they said Law must be punish criminal himself, neither his family nor others.

the point is to gain intelligence. capturing a high level al queda operative and hanging him tells you nothing about an organization, its plans, its members, its leadership, its bases/training facilities, its financing and planned attacks.

[GregE]

Originally Posted by chodadog

It kind of invites the same treatment for captive US soldiers in future wars. What's going to prevent enemies in future wars from torturing US soldiers for vital information that could save the lives of their soldiers or civilians?

You mean they're not doing that already?

Oddly enough the last enemy combatant to treat USA military prisoners according to international law (most of the time that is) was nazi Germany.

Originally Posted by chodadog

Also interesting is that 6 years after this guy's eye-opening confession about the group's plans, ideology and operatives, the US appears to be no closer to catching Bin Laden

I rather doubt that Khalid Sheik Mohammed knows where Bin Laden is.

Originally Posted by chodadog

or bringing down Al-Qaeda.

That organization will never be brought down entirely waterboarding or no waterboarding.

[xxxdesign-net]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

that's a completely different question than the absurd claim that "torture doesn't work".

that is the debate and what these people keep saying. of course there are plenty of legal, ethical and moral questions. but that has nothing to do with the blanket assertion that capturing someone, throwing them in a tiny room, making them stand in uncomfortable positions, not allowing them to sleep for days, fucking with them mentally, beating the shit out of them, water boarding them etc won't ultimately get them to talk... just as it did with the high level al queda operative in question.

uh.. no... when people say torture doesnt work its because the negatives surpass the positives... Of course someone can spill the beans if tortured... but can also say a bunch of bullshit like the US soldiers are trained to do (SERE) ... Ironicaly, SERE techniques are also used to get their captives to talk, often talk bullshit, and if the bullshit fits the agenda, it is then used, like it was used, to justify the war in Iraq by linking Bin laden to Hussain... Not aquired by torture but same deceitful mentality, bullshit made by Curveball regarding the WMV program was used the build the case for Iraq... Many other drawbacks to torture can be listed..

So to recap, you have a bunch of liars, using torture and false confessions to justify their agenda, those liars tell you its all good, and you believe them?

I'm also curious how the mastermind of 9/11, amongs many other horrible things, who will be executed in the short future, because of being waterboarded is having a wonderful time being a CIA asset...



I also dont know how to make sense of this:

"In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture.

Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times"


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

"CIA Director Michael Hayden told a Senate committee on February 5, 2008, that the agency had used waterboarding on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.[54] A 2005 US Justice Department memo released in April 2009 stated that Mohammed had undergone waterboarding 183 times in March 2003.[55]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed

"The alleged mastermind of the September 11 attacks today demanded to be sentenced to death so he could become a martyr, as his trial in Guantanamo Bay began. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-sentence.html 05 Jun 2008

[GatorB]

A) torture is WRONG no mater if it works or not. Unless you admit you're a fag an POS society that has to use pussy techniques. sorry I'm an America I'd like to believe America is not faggish POS and a pussy.

B) the fact is that if I personaly was waterboarded I would LIE. how is me LYING providing useful inforamtion? Thus I have just proven that it is ineffective.


ironcially all the pro-torture guys here are totally disgusted by OUR guys that have been torutured over the many wars we have been in. WHY be disgusted? Our enemies were just using the most "usefull" techniques to get info, right? So were our enemies in the right for torturing our guys in previous wars or not?

[TrafficRush]

i would try it

[BlackCrayon]

if you can get that kind of info from whaterboarding just imagine what you could get when you pull their fingernails out.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

What difference does it make? How much false information does ANYONE get interrogating ANYONE about a crime get? Every time the police ask a question they get lied to. That's part of the deal.

What planet do you live on where people say "yes officer, i was doing 108 miles per hour AND i'm drunk... you need to arrest me, impound my car, charge me with at least wreckless driving and dui"... or "yeah, of course that's my crack pipe, who's else would it be"

It's not like the CIA or any other government intelligence agency of any nation are a bunch of naive, inexperienced jokers expecting full, complete and 100% honest confessions right from the start. the whole point is to start breaking people down until they DO tell the truth.

You are correct. Most people who are guilty of something do lie to the police/authorities to get out of it. I have several friends who are cops and they all tell me that they assume everyone that they talk to is lying until they have a reason to believe otherwise.

Don't you think that sending the message to every terrorist in the world that says "hey, don't worry if you get caught,... they'll be required by their own laws and rules to treat you like royalty... so just kick back, relax and keep your mouth shut and don't worry about anything" is now a poster for terrorist recruiters?

How about trying to honestly answer this question: "What do you think terrorist groups are thinking right now while watching this impossibly retarded debate about how well they should be treated should they be captured and publicly detailing the limits of how much they can be pressured into giving up information"

No, the message we should be sending is nothing. We should develop our own energy sources and gain energy independence so that we have no reason to do business with the middle east. We should pull out of every middle eastern country and turn our back on that cesspool of a shitstained part of the world. Maybe that won't cause them to 100% forget about us, but it will give them a lot less reasons to hate us. If we leave, someone else will take out place and I think a lot of these terrorist groups will turn their attention to that country and forget about us.

Of course torture works. people in this nation are extremely naive.

Take Russia for example. If you live in Russia, you might notice something super interesting about watching crime shows like the Russian equivalent of "COPS" on tv. that is that EVERY single person who committed a serious crime like murdering people or several ends up giving a full, complete confession on camera, walking everyone through the crime scene, taking them to where the body(s) are on camera and so on. Then you start seeing the common pattern of them having busted up faces, limping etc. I know tons of cops in Russia. They get confessions almost every time for major crimes before they got to trial. Do you think that's done by simply asking?

First off there are many experts who would disagree with you and say that torture doesn't work and that it isn't anymore effective than other interrogation methods. But that isn't the point. Forget them. Here is the question. How many innocent people have the Russian cops tortured? I'm sure they don't show that on the Russian version of COPS. Do you want to live in a country where you live in fear of the police? Do you want to live in a country where if you get picked up for something, something you didn't do, you are going to get tortured until they decide you are telling them the truth? Or maybe you will break down and tell them what you think they want to hear just so they will stop. I personally don't want to live in that kind of country.

I'm not saying its right or wrong... i'm saying its 100% fact that they fuck people up until they talk and give up the full details of what happened. Saying that can't work or doesn't is totally absurd when its done all over the world, every single day. Police, mafia ... intelligence agencies, secret police.. whoever. It's not like the CIA was the first one to think up the idea of putting someone in a room and fucking them up until they talk... or telling them that their wife is going to get killed or whatever. It's not an original concept that was invented on the battle field yesterday or in someones secret police dungeon yesterday.

The question shouldn't be "Does torture work" - that's fucking retarded. If you know something and i want to get it from you... its easy. I can fuck you up for days, not let you sleep, beat the shit out of you, bust you into pieces until you break down and talk.

The only questions should be "when is it justifiable to apply certain techniques to certain individuals"... but to sit here and suggest that if you know something and i want that information, that there is no way i can get you to give me that information is extremely dishonest.

Again, I'm not going to argue if it works or not. I think in some cases it does and in other cases it does not. I still think though that when you do these kinds of things eventually the story gets out and eventually it gets back to the people we are fighting and they use it a fuel for recruiting more people to hate us. To me it is like the invasion of Iraq. Yes, we got Saddam out of power and yes we killed some terrorist, but I feel by doing this we created 20 terrorist for every 1 that we killed. The more it gets out that we torture, the more it adds fuel to the fire. This is not a military war we are fighting. It is a war of ideals and we have to be willing to show the world that on a moral grounds we are superior.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

that's a completely different question than the absurd claim that "torture doesn't work".

that is the debate and what these people keep saying. of course there are plenty of legal, ethical and moral questions. but that has nothing to do with the blanket assertion that capturing someone, throwing them in a tiny room, making them stand in uncomfortable positions, not allowing them to sleep for days, fucking with them mentally, beating the shit out of them, water boarding them etc won't ultimately get them to talk... just as it did with the high level al queda operative in question.

Here are a few articles that argue that torture doesn't work. They make some very good points.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121301303.html

http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/f...ers/index.html

http://www.newsweek.com/id/45788

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7516880/

The last article, the msnbc one, is written by a guy who was an interrogator and has tortured people. I would think he has a pretty good perspective on this topic.

[Brujah]

Damn, I think he's onto something. The laws need to be changed and the presumption of innocence gotten rid of. We can only really be safe if everyone is guilty, until proven innocent.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Damn, I think he's onto something. The laws need to be changed and the presumption of innocence gotten rid of. We can only really be safe if everyone is guilty, until proven innocent.

Or until they are tortured enough that we are satisfied they are telling the truth.

[Licentious]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture.

sounds like a great time!

[TheDoc]

Aye, it was totally worth torturing him and all those other people and the people that were innocent too, all of them..

It worked out great, no harm was caused at all.. naaa. and we got something from one of them too, finally, that can be printed in the news, that proves all this was worth it after all...


It's all brilliant proof for morons.

[gwidomains]

A the WaPo the source of all things neo-conservative LOL...